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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:05 am 
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A short while back I posted a thread asking how to explain in layman terms why be an audiophile i.e. why listen to (as per se) audiophile quality equipment (meaning the pluses of listening to modern well designed separates vs an all in one 1970s receivers and set of 3 way 12's with resonating cabinets)
What to say to people who say, your stereo sounds good but it sound nothing like a live concert. and. How to convince people that (for example) rock stars along side recording engineers spend months and lots of money making sure their albums sound good.

Finally I found what in my opinion is the best answer or the best explanation of all this on papers written by The Anstendig Institue.

I won't cut and paste the whole paper I read as it is quite lengthy so here is a cut and paste of the what is IMO the key issue.

"Today, there are two sources of music, live performances and recordings. It is important to understand the difference in the physical effects of the two. In live performance, the audience and performers all interact and vibrate together. The people in the audience, all vibrating at the same time, set up a powerful overriding vibration that is the sum of all of the individual vibrations. The performance takes place in relation to that overall vibration. The quality of the performance is determined by the quality of the audience's vibration. Since everyone is vibrating together, there is no difficulty for each individual to enter into the flow of the music. Not so with recordings.
Listening to recordings presents two problems:
1) With recorded music the body is seldom in the same rhythmic flow as that of the music when one begins listening. It therefore takes a good part of the recording before the body settles down into the music's flow, thereby allowing the fine nuance of the music to be heard.
2) Hardly any sound systems are able to reproduce the tiny dynamic subtleties of the finest expressive content. (The weakest links are the mechanical components that have to convert sound vibrations into electrical signals and vice versa, i.e., the phono-pickup and the loudspeakers.) And all sound-reproduction has to be equalized if the true expressive content is to be heard.
It is generally believed that, although sound-systems differ in price and features, they all essentially reproduce the music on the recording. This is absolutely not true. Few even come close to reproducing the recorded performance, particularly not the small dynamic nuances that contain the individual interpretation. What is heard is a falsification that is a different work of art altogether. Because of the importance of this point, I repeat that, with all but a very few sound systems, the listener is not hearing what is on the record, the music is changed, and one is hearing a different performance altogether."

For me their paragraph containing "What is heard is a falsification that is a different work of art altogether" really sends the message home as it where.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:02 am 
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An audiophile is someone who enjoys recorded music playback and who believes better than basic quality recordings and/or equipment makes for a better listening experience. Some are happy with a basic setup. Some go to extremes.

Just enjoy the music as lo-fi or hi-fi as you like.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:24 am 
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shawnwes wrote:
An audiophile is someone who enjoys recorded music playback and who believes better than basic quality recordings and/or equipment makes for a better listening experience. Some are happy with a basic setup. Some go to extremes.

Just enjoy the music as lo-fi or hi-fi as you like.



Please define basic setup.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:29 am 
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PBB wrote:
shawnwes wrote:
An audiophile is someone who enjoys recorded music playback and who believes better than basic quality recordings and/or equipment makes for a better listening experience. Some are happy with a basic setup. Some go to extremes.

Just enjoy the music as lo-fi or hi-fi as you like.



Please define basic setup.


It's self explanatory.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:33 am 
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No it's not. Your "answer" is a cop-out.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:47 am 
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PBB wrote:
No it's not. Your "answer" is a cop-out.


I don't know whether to laugh or roll my eyes so I'll do both. :lol: :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:55 am 
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All one has to do is hit the cymbal on a drum kit, and your ears will quickly realize that not a single sound system in the world can accurately reproduce all that sound. The micro dynamics, the tiniest details, and the overtones that we feel, (not hear), resonating almost up to 100khz.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:16 am 
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shawnwes wrote:
An audiophile is someone who enjoys recorded music playback and who believes better than basic quality recordings and/or equipment makes for a better listening experience. Some are happy with a basic setup. Some go to extremes.

Just enjoy the music as lo-fi or hi-fi as you like.


I do not buy into the unnecessary complex and scientific explanations of how soundwaves travel in a live performance versus a recorded one.

I beleive there are three types of profiles:

A) Music lovers or "melomanes" in french:
The enjoyment of music and artists musical creations regardless of live or pre-recorded status and almost regardless of the quality of reproduction, above a minimun standard of quality of course. Think of the person who owns several hundred (or thousands) LP records, yet never really bothered to upgrade their mid-seventies Sansui system and house-brand speakers.

B) Audiophiles. Music is used as a means to enjoy high-end audio equipment on an ownership and pride of ownership level. It might sound a bit rude, but the term "gear lust" comes to mind. Those folks often post in "show me your system" type of galleries. And within this category there are specialized sub-niches (the overly theorical and analytical profile, the sound-performance-oriented profile, etc. And more). Manufacturers encourage this of course, feeding their clientele with whatever floats their boats. Cable manufacturers come to mind here, but they are not the only ones of course. Think of the serial upgraditis person, the flavor of the month club. Few will admit to this status. Nothing wrong with it. I also collect guitars for a hobby, and admit to only be playing on the same 1-2 models.

C) "Hybrids". Love of music AND audio equipment to enjoy both the power of music (and all it can bring) but with a preoccupation and satisfaction of ownership of well-designed audio equipment and (yes again) pride of ownership.

The one common thread here is the word "enjoyment" but with a sligthly selfish nature. Live shows are "happenings" and often shared with someone or in groups, while the activities of an audiophile is (very often) solitary and masculine in nature. The is usually no more than a single "audiophile" in a typical audiophile house. But in that same house there could be very often several music lover. Think of the person who will enjoy a piece of audio gear for a couple of years (and more) to enjoy his favorite music, before making changes to his system.

Audio in all its forms, is basically, and mostly, about enjoyment. Musical or other.

Just my opinion.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:34 am 
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I have to strongly disagree. I know for a fact that recorded music can sound like the real thing, a live performance.

I've known about this for about 8 years and improved my sound system when I purchased new speakers in 2012. Here's what I've been doing. Okay I have a high fidelity multi-channel pre-amp with built in dac. I also use an outboard dac. Using a concert blu ray disc for example, which has uncompressed recordings, Lpcm high bit rate, and generally the best recording I have heard. The signal is processed through the dac chip in universal player to outboard dac which upsamples to 48/192. It then goes through pre-amp dac where it is upsampled again to 48/96. That signal then goes to mixer where I have the setting adjusted to my liking, gain, line-in, master volume, treble mid-range bass tone controls. Then to two power amps for 4 channel stereo. My room has good acoustics.

I typically play concert blu rays at concert levels, quite loud. I got to tell you that I don't think the audio can be improved on. Now I've said this to myself in the past, but I always found another tweak that improved the audio. This time I mean it.

But you know I don't always want to listen at concert levels. That's like having a live band in your living room everyday, too much. That's where volume control comes in and you lower the volume. Of coarse at a lower volume sound reproduction doesn't sound like the real thing. Instruments typically range around 92 decibels where we hear their natural harmonics, with a few exceptions like drums.

I have good equipment and I could not achieve 'live like' or the 'real thing' with mid-fi equipment.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:26 am 
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newmusic wrote:
All one has to do is hit the cymbal on a drum kit, and your ears will quickly realize that not a single sound system in the world can accurately reproduce all that sound. The micro dynamics, the tiniest details, and the overtones that we feel, (not hear), resonating almost up to 100khz.


A lot of truth there!
Ott.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:36 am 
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Most studio recordings are built. The musicians are often not even in the same room at the same time. This puts the preformance squarely into the hands of the recording, mixing, mastering engineers. Since there was no live performance, the paper being cited cannot apply. Consequently, the focus on an audiophile attempting perfect reproduction of live music is invalid.

Simply put: An audiophile is someone that is in love with the quality of sound.

So long as there is no strict definition of what an audiophile system is supposed to sound like, there will always be a wide range of audiophile sound.

As proof: all audiophile systems do not sound the same. They sound how their owners want them to sound. Each owner has different priorities.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:45 am 
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Music lovers listen to music.
Audiophiles listen to sound.
You can be both.
How the both perceive is psychoacoustics.
Are you listening to harmonies or reverb tails?

Dr. G


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:54 am 
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Digital Doc wrote:
I have to strongly disagree. I know for a fact that recorded music can sound like the real thing, a live performance.

I've known about this for about 8 years and improved my sound system when I purchased new speakers in 2012. Here's what I've been doing. Okay I have a high fidelity multi-channel pre-amp with built in dac. I also use an outboard dac. Using a concert blu ray disc for example, which has uncompressed recordings, Lpcm high bit rate, and generally the best recording I have heard. The signal is processed through the dac chip in universal player to outboard dac which upsamples to 48/192. It then goes through pre-amp dac where it is upsampled again to 48/96. That signal then goes to mixer where I have the setting adjusted to my liking, gain, line-in, master volume, treble mid-range bass tone controls. Then to two power amps for 4 channel stereo. My room has good acoustics.

I typically play concert blu rays at concert levels, quite loud. I got to tell you that I don't think the audio can be improved on. Now I've said this to myself in the past, but I always found another tweak that improved the audio. This time I mean it.

But you know I don't always want to listen at concert levels. That's like having a live band in your living room everyday, too much. That's where volume control comes in and you lower the volume. Of coarse at a lower volume sound reproduction doesn't sound like the real thing. Instruments typically range around 92 decibels where we hear their natural harmonics, with a few exceptions like drums.

I have good equipment and I could not achieve 'live like' or the 'real thing' with mid-fi equipment.


Your points are good, but their is a missing part that I will include in bold letters.

"I have to strongly disagree. I know for a fact that recorded music can sound like the real thing, a live performance. To my ears."

Such comments are always subjective. One person's noise can be the other person's music, and vice-versa.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:50 am 
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milag wrote:
Digital Doc wrote:
I have to strongly disagree. I know for a fact that recorded music can sound like the real thing, a live performance.

I've known about this for about 8 years and improved my sound system when I purchased new speakers in 2012. Here's what I've been doing. Okay I have a high fidelity multi-channel pre-amp with built in dac. I also use an outboard dac. Using a concert blu ray disc for example, which has uncompressed recordings, Lpcm high bit rate, and generally the best recording I have heard. The signal is processed through the dac chip in universal player to outboard dac which upsamples to 48/192. It then goes through pre-amp dac where it is upsampled again to 48/96. That signal then goes to mixer where I have the setting adjusted to my liking, gain, line-in, master volume, treble mid-range bass tone controls. Then to two power amps for 4 channel stereo. My room has good acoustics.

I typically play concert blu rays at concert levels, quite loud. I got to tell you that I don't think the audio can be improved on. Now I've said this to myself in the past, but I always found another tweak that improved the audio. This time I mean it.

But you know I don't always want to listen at concert levels. That's like having a live band in your living room everyday, too much. That's where volume control comes in and you lower the volume. Of coarse at a lower volume sound reproduction doesn't sound like the real thing. Instruments typically range around 92 decibels where we hear their natural harmonics, with a few exceptions like drums.

I have good equipment and I could not achieve 'live like' or the 'real thing' with mid-fi equipment.


Your points are good, but their is a missing part that I will include in bold letters.

"I have to strongly disagree. I know for a fact that recorded music can sound like the real thing, a live performance. To my ears."

Such comments are always subjective. One person's noise can be the other person's music, and vice-versa.


Of coarse they are my ears. With that attitude audiophilia is not going to progress.

I've been to two Rush concerts 77,78 at our old barn. I remember how it sounded 2112, By-Tor Snowdog, Working Man, What You Doing, Hemisphere, Xanadu, Fairwell to Kings, Trees, Freewill. I relive the concerts regularly, I'm there! The reproduction is as good as it gets and sounds like the real thing to me at 110 decibels 'C' weighted.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:52 am 
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I played in a symphonic band for five years and to this day, fifty-three years later, have never heard any system that can accurately produce that quality of sound, be it percussion, woodwinds or brass. Vocals can get closer.

The poster above, using a cymbal as an example was 100% correct.


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