Canuck Audio Mart Hifi and Audio ForumCanuck Audio Mart Hifi and Audio Forum
It is currently Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:43 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: CD transport question
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:40 am
Posts: 114
Location: Fredericton, NB, CA
I got a new cd transport to replace my Rega Apollo that is dying. I used the Rega as a transport only.
The new one sounds better to me but why? My DAC is external. Why would something that only reads 1s and 0s have any impact on tone?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:05 am
Posts: 362
Location: Peachland, BC, CA
I use a Rega Apollo for a transport to my Chord Dac. While the sound of the excellent Rega internal Dac is fine the Chord is better. Possibly the reason the new transport sounds better is as you were saying the Rega was dying?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 2:33 pm
Posts: 3222
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
People have been asking the question you've just asked since there were separate transports and DACs.

There are a few points worth mentioning: power supply, clock circuitry, and output circuitry.

Yes, the transport just has the job of sending those 1s and 0s to the DAC. And 1s and 0s are always the same, so why would one transport sound better than another?

1. All audio components—amps, DACs, transports, tuners, streamers, whatever—modulate the electricity received from the power supply to do what they do. So the quality of the power supply has a huge impact on the accuracy of any and all components. And, as you probably know, the quality of power supplies varies enormously: from switching power supplies that cost the manufacturer a couple of bucks to elaborate linear power supplies that use highly specified transformers, chokes, capacitor banks, regulators, rectifiers, etc. So it's worth comparing the power supply in your old Rega to that in your new machine.

2. The master clock in a digital component is an essential part of audio reproduction. As with power supplies, quality and cost vary immensely. The very best ones can cost, by themselves, hundreds or even thousands of dollars.

3. There are several types of digital output circuitry—S/PDIF, AES, Toslink, glass fibre optical, several implementations of i2S, and various proprietary implementations by companies such as MSB, dCS and EMM Labs. And these protocols are in turn influenced by (1) and (2) above.

So, lots of reasons why two different transports outputting to the same DAC may not sound the same. . .


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:51 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:50 pm
Posts: 12508
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Jitter?

_________________
I'm sure that the term "resolving" has way more to do with a sense of self worth than any scientific principle. - davinci_redux


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:12 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:18 pm
Posts: 637
Location: Sooke, BC, CA
rmcfee wrote:
I got a new cd transport to replace my Rega Apollo that is dying. I used the Rega as a transport only.
The new one sounds better to me but why? My DAC is external. Why would something that only reads 1s and 0s have any impact on tone?


Clearly your Rega Apollo was dying a slow death, any CDROM, Transport or CD Player will sound better than one that is broken.

As long as the 0's and 1's are delivered to a functioning DAC from a functioning source (This means working within spec) all sources will sound the same.

_________________
Use Linux, Be Cool and Be Smart


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:40 am
Posts: 114
Location: Fredericton, NB, CA
Many thanks for the replys. Possibly the Rega was slowly deteriorating and the gradual decline in sound was not noticable to me.
Nevertheless, I hear better separation in the stereo field and a nicer, less harsh high end. The transport is a relatively inexpensive Cambridge Audio and connected via a High Diamond coax cable. The bloody cable costs more than the transport!
Thanks.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:45 am
Posts: 1271
Location: Burlington, ON, CA
Audio_Guy wrote:
rmcfee wrote:
I got a new cd transport to replace my Rega Apollo that is dying. I used the Rega as a transport only.
The new one sounds better to me but why? My DAC is external. Why would something that only reads 1s and 0s have any impact on tone?


Clearly your Rega Apollo was dying a slow death, any CDROM, Transport or CD Player will sound better than one that is broken.

As long as the 0's and 1's are delivered to a functioning DAC from a functioning source (This means working within spec) all sources will sound the same.


The Apollo was delivering 0s and 1s. It was playing music. What is "spec" to you? It is absurd to say all sources sound the same, and the poster just found this out.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:50 pm
Posts: 12508
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Audio_Guy wrote:
rmcfee wrote:
I got a new cd transport to replace my Rega Apollo that is dying. I used the Rega as a transport only.
The new one sounds better to me but why? My DAC is external. Why would something that only reads 1s and 0s have any impact on tone?


Clearly your Rega Apollo was dying a slow death, any CDROM, Transport or CD Player will sound better than one that is broken.

As long as the 0's and 1's are delivered to a functioning DAC from a functioning source (This means working within spec) all sources will sound the same.


Jitter: http://www.sereneaudio.com/blog/what-does-jitter-sound-like

_________________
I'm sure that the term "resolving" has way more to do with a sense of self worth than any scientific principle. - davinci_redux


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:10 pm
Posts: 24
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
I use a Cambridge CXC transport into an Audiolab Mdac and currently prefer the optical input to the coax. I wouldn't want to put that impression to a blind test, but you might want to try the comparison.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:04 am
Posts: 436
Location: Brampton, ON, CA
Some good info on CD transports from lampizator:
http://lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/TRANSPORT/CD_transport_DIY.html

I'm using his SPDIF mod on a pioneer DV-300 to a Cambridge Audio 851N with great results.
http://lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/REFERENCES/Goldmund/goldmundizator.html

Personally I don't spin CD's much anymore. Even though I have a ton of them. I wanted to keep my investment in a transport low.

The Cambridge Audio CXC sounds like a good value transport designed primarily with digital output in mind. Where most CD players have all the money in the analogue output and skimp on the digital. As seen with the signal traces of some CD players Lampizator posted.

_________________
ImageImageImage


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:08 am
Posts: 795
Location: Montréal, QC, CA
Erik wrote:
Jitter?
Exactly.

All CD transports provide 1s & 0s. Unless the disc reading part (laser pick up, processing etc) is faulty,
the only difference has to be the "transport" of those 1s & 0s, the timing.

Error of this timing is called jitter...

_________________
Keep things simple and even simpler
Nakamichi BX-300/Balance BW-1010 DAC, Balance MR-50R, Infinity RS 8 Kappa
Nakamichi Dragon/Onix Dac25b, Audio Research SP-9, Spectral DMA-100s/Nakamichi PA-7II, Martin-Logan CLSII/Balance Helicia


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:59 am
Posts: 1929
Location: Caledonia, ON, CA
I can say with absolute certainty that all digital sources/transports most definitely do not sound the same.
I own several cd players that I have used as transports, including a hard drive. To my ears the transport has just as much influence on the quality of the sound as the d-a.
I have an old Cambridge that sounds surprisingly good despite its relatively low price $400.
I have a Sony dvd recorder that sounds a tiny bit smoother but not as dynamic as the Cambridge.
I have a $3k+ Denon blu ray player that makes cd's sound really, really dynamic and bombastic, similar to an action movie sound track.
I have a Tascam studio hard drive that is smooth like the Sony and almost as dynamic as the Denon.
But my current reference is an Accustic Arts Drive 11. A dedicated transport that weighs over 40lbs. This thing makes all the other transports sound broken and unlistenable in comparison. Silky smooth, hyper detailed, and the sound emanates from a completely black background. Just so natural, pleasing, and easy to listen to. The thing is built like a tank, literally, and takes digital playback to a level I previously thought not possible.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:18 am
Posts: 4854
Location: Surrey , BC, CA
same here the old but super build Accuphase DP90 is one of the best transport I ever had....


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:10 pm
Posts: 24
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
newmusic wrote:
I can say with absolute certainty that all digital sources/transports most definitely do not sound the same.
I own several cd players that I have used as transports, including a hard drive. To my ears the transport has just as much influence on the quality of the sound as the d-a.
I have an old Cambridge that sounds surprisingly good despite its relatively low price $400.


I have a Sony dvd recorder that sounds a tiny bit smoother but not as dynamic as the Cambridge.
I have a $3k+ Denon blu ray player that makes cd's sound really, really dynamic and bombastic, similar to an action movie sound track.
I have a Tascam studio hard drive that is smooth like the Sony and almost as dynamic as the Denon.
But my current reference is an Accustic Arts Drive 11. A dedicated transport that weighs over 40lbs. This thing makes all the other transports sound broken and unlistenable in comparison. Silky smooth, hyper detailed, and the sound emanates from a completely black background. Just so natural, pleasing, and easy to listen to. The thing is built like a tank, literally, and takes digital playback to a level I previously thought not possible.


I'd like you to try a Cambridge cxc and let me know if I should save up for an Accustic Arts!


Last edited by rabinowicz on Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:06 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:18 pm
Posts: 637
Location: Sooke, BC, CA
Nakamichel wrote:
Erik wrote:
Jitter?
Exactly.

All CD transports provide 1s & 0s. Unless the disc reading part (laser pick up, processing etc) is faulty,
the only difference has to be the "transport" of those 1s & 0s, the timing.

Error of this timing is called jitter...


Nakamichel

Since this is 2018, All "good" modern DAC's take the incoming data stream and buffer the data internally then reclock the words as they are fed from the buffer to the internal DAC chip.

Good DACs will have good internal clocks that consistently convert data to music without adding any audible jitter distortion.

Note that there are quite a few abysmally poor quality DAC's out there that may not work to spec at the best of times. Cambridge Audio comes to mind.

_________________
Use Linux, Be Cool and Be Smart


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group