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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:48 am 
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So we have a signal coming out of a CD player, unchanged, unmodified, untouched, with enough voltage to easily drive a power amp, going directly into a power amp.
We put a pre amp between the two, and the sound/signal gets better?
I don't understand how this is possible, unless the pre amp has a wee frequency response tilt that ever so subtly makes the sound more appealing. That or some kind of magic is happening. Just asking. I am not a scientist, just someone who questions everything, which I understand can be quite annoying.

-- 06 Mar 2018 13:51 --

If you ask any of my longest time stand up closest friends, most of who are Italian, about me, they will tell you this, Joe is the most annoying prick on the planet but you always know where he stands.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:24 am 
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retiredelectrician wrote:
So we have a signal coming out of a CD player, unchanged, unmodified, untouched, with enough voltage to easily drive a power amp, going directly into a power amp.
We put a pre amp between the two, and the sound/signal gets better?
I don't understand how this is possible, unless the pre amp has a wee frequency response tilt that ever so subtly makes the sound more appealing. That or some kind of magic is happening. Just asking. I am not a scientist, just someone who questions everything, which I understand can be quite annoying.

-- 06 Mar 2018 13:51 --

If you ask any of my longest time stand up closest friends, most of who are Italian, about me, they will tell you this, Joe is the most annoying prick on the planet but you always know where he stands.


I don’t find it annoying. Can’t argue the pursuit of information.

As for your question there could be many factors that come into play. Will say that despite many of us feel that an unaltered signal is the ultimate goal, sometimes that is not always the case. A preamp could alter the signal to something more pleasing. There is also the case of impedance matching. I am sure others will chime in with more factors
Little vid from Paul McGowan on preamps. Just to note – I do not take this as gospel, just someone sharing experience/opinion. The best component is the one that gives you the most enjoyment – passive or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh27E7YKN9s


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:16 am 
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analogluvr wrote:

I heard one and was not overly impressed. Sounded like a typical passive to me. Which is all it is. There were three of us at the listening session and two of us preferred a tricked out Bottlehead to the TEO. The third individual said he preferred the lows and mids of the Bottlehead but the highs of the TEO. Definitely not the grand slam it's purported to be, but that's Audio for you… :roll:



I was waiting for that. You see, yours is the only negative comment the preamp has ever garnered in any print or conversation, anywhere that I am aware of..

Any time the Teo passive pre is mentioned on this forum, you always go out of your way to get in there and deliver your commentary.

Isn't that interesting.

It's like you want it to fail and not be available to anyone. Bizarre.

This is all small scale audio manufacturing done by people pouring their lives into it ... to serve the music you so desperately want to hear - as best you can.

Yet you seem to have a need to get in their and make sure your personal result is taken as a gospel of high weighting, when the overall results in a far larger group...say otherwise. From my point of view, there is just no understanding of your logic, here.

For example, the two reviewers, overall (especially Doug) tried it out in multitudes of configurations and systems. Dozens of configurations, if not more. We've even had distributors of 35 years experiences in the highest of the high end (Hong Kong extreme market) say it is the best device they've ever heard, or not heard. Yet it sells poorly as it can't compete with the profit margin on a $20k-40k preamp, or the remote control convenience of other devices (it is necessarily hard core, as those volume pots are all compromises).

A Manufacturer of $5k-10k-15k tube preamps told their own customers/dealers once, right to their face, in our presence, that the Teo Passive is better than the best they've ever built or designed. Even in that extreme condition, still..no sale. It's downright weird. Passive preamps seem to fall in a hardcore disbelief hole of expectations.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:54 am 
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Ken Hotte. The comments about your product by this person don't bother you, good to hear.
I appreciate your input on some of my posts here even if it takes me a number of reads to understand some of the technical things you say, some I will never understand.

From your page "Signal is inherently a plasma. Ionic plasma, or an electron cloud, with a pressure differential, with respect to the variant we call an ‘audio signal’.
I have no idea what the hell it means, but I am not an engineer/designer, I don't have to know what it means, thats your job.

I think many of us here on CAM appreciate the time you, and others in the eye of the storm as it were, take to come here and help us make sense of our experiences and biases and preconceived notions about what's what in this business.

I will soon, on another post probably annoy even more people (this is "my" job) when I talk about "sensation transference" and how it affects or doesn't affect our buying decisions and how and why we hear what we hear.

"Your house catches fire, you have only enough time to rescue either your audio gear, or your record collection, which do you save?"


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:11 am 
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sthomas1049 wrote:
I don’t think it’s a clear case of no preamp = the best performance, even if one is not required for obvious source selecting etc. There have been many who have gone from no pre or a passive one to active and felt there was an improvement.


An active preamp changes the impedance that the amplifier sees vs a passive, or that of no preamp. So while something like a bare pot might sound fine at certain volumes, it does not at all volumes. An active has a much lower output impedance across the board than such a passive.

This lowered output impedance is beneficial if the amplifier has a low input impedance.

The rule of thumb I've heard is input impedance = 100 x output impedance. Some will say 60x is enough.

-- 06 Mar 2018 19:18 --

Teo Audio wrote:
analogluvr wrote:

I heard one and was not overly impressed. Sounded like a typical passive to me. Which is all it is. There were three of us at the listening session and two of us preferred a tricked out Bottlehead to the TEO. The third individual said he preferred the lows and mids of the Bottlehead but the highs of the TEO. Definitely not the grand slam it's purported to be, but that's Audio for you… :roll:



I was waiting for that. You see, yours is the only negative comment the preamp has ever garnered in any print or conversation, anywhere that I am aware of..

Any time the Teo passive pre is mentioned on this forum, you always go out of your way to get in there and deliver your commentary.

Isn't that interesting.

It's like you want it to fail and not be available to anyone. Bizarre.

This is all small scale audio manufacturing done by people pouring their lives into it ... to serve the music you so desperately want to hear - as best you can.

Yet you seem to have a need to get in their and make sure your personal result is taken as a gospel of high weighting, when the overall results in a far larger group...say otherwise. From my point of view, there is just no understanding of your logic, here.

For example, the two reviewers, overall (especially Doug) tried it out in multitudes of configurations and systems. Dozens of configurations, if not more. We've even had distributors of 35 years experiences in the highest of the high end (Hong Kong extreme market) say it is the best device they've ever heard, or not heard. Yet it sells poorly as it can't compete with the profit margin on a $20k-40k preamp, or the remote control convenience of other devices (it is necessarily hard core, as those volume pots are all compromises).

A Manufacturer of $5k-10k-15k tube preamps told their own customers/dealers once, right to their face, in our presence, that the Teo Passive is better than the best they've ever built or designed. Even in that extreme condition, still..no sale. It's downright weird. Passive preamps seem to fall in a hardcore disbelief hole of expectations.


We were not there to witness the event.

As far as we know, and quite possibly how the prospective buyer felt, this manufacturer may have been attempting to help the sale along for other reasons.

It's not enough to say something like "Nelson Pass says this is the best piece of gear he's ever heard" and cause a stampede to the gear makers door. People want to hear for themselves. Then they want to hear in their systems. Then it is quite possible that if the unit is totally transparent, they don't like what they hear because they finally hear how their other components sound; they prefer the coloration of the other piece.

There is no "one size fits all" solution here. And I am sure you've been around long enough to know that.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:33 pm 
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Hi Ken,
Every passive device ever conceived or sold by anyone has the same laws of physics to battle with. But you're in luck, because I've heard so many bad active preamps it isn't funny. I can't call your device a preamp, because it isn't. It's a switch unit with a pot in it. It's pretty hard to screw up a design with a passive device compared to an active circuit. So from that standpoint I can believe you have had a lot of good reviews.

But.

Compared to a real preamp that has been designed properly, you have the laws of physics running hard against you compared to the active preamp. One massive problem you have is output impedance. You have to drive not only the cable capacitance (that can be a biggie), but also the sometimes non-linear loading of the amplifier input stage. On the other end, you have the source device having to drive the pot or switched resistor. Here the output impedance of the source comes into play. Obviously a source device with a low output impedance will do better. You're lucky that most CD players have an output impedance less than 100 ohms. Connecting an older product, like an old tube tuner or phono preamp, you can't use the impedance to help with your design. It's important to note that the only time your passive device has a low output impedance is right up to full volume when the source is connected directly to the cables and amplifier input stage. With the older gear, you don't even have that to work for you.

A low output impedance also delivers greater signal to noise ratio at listening levels. That's because the noise floor is quieter with a preamp. Then you also may well have higher peak levels because the real preamp can drive the cable and amplifier input stage.

What else does a low output impedance do for you? Well, any electronic noise picked up by the cables is shunted to common (ground) more effectively by a low output impedance stage for one. That and the output impedance is approximately equal at all volume settings. The impedance of the passive setup is only low (guaranteed) when it is turned all the way down. But a small amount of listenable signal your impedance is rapidly increasing well beyond that of an active stage. What you now have to realise is that the low levels of sound you are delivering to a power amp is more delicate than a MM phono signal, and no one in their right mind would treat a signal like that to the conditions between the power amp and passive device switchy-thing. If you don't believe this, plug a turntable directly into a power amplifier and play something using a MM cartridge. Can you hear anything? Sure you can and at a similar level to the "detail" people will listen for. Not loud, but the level is considerably higher than the products of distortion for a half decent amplifier or preamp. We just proved that the audio levels between a preamp (or passive device) is on the order of a MM cartridge when it's low in volume, but still audible. You can hear that.

So, anyway. I can see where your passive device will win the vote over most of the preamplifiers out there, but it can't really compete with a real preamplifier. In addition, the very high highs can be muted on your device, so the sound coming from the preamp will be "sharper", the difference being that you are hearing all the signal with the preamplifier. It's not harsh, just complete.

You do have the better solution compared to a not great preamp.

Best, Chris


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:50 pm 
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Well put, Chris.

Speaking for myself, I once heard a passive 'preamp' with transformer volume control against a Pass DCB1 buffer and much preferred the buffer. I don't think either was completely transparent, but the buffer lent the sound more drive and vitality....to me it was simply more engaging.

People listen for different things; there's no such thing as 'The Best Ever' that everyone will agree on.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:31 pm 
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it will pass 1080p component video on the wide open position. Or 24/192 digital s/pdif. HF multiplex or clean low jitter square waves, both are not a problem. A 5 foot speaker cable (3 of the 4 strands) of the same fluid will also pass 1080P component video, even when terminated with spades..

People forget or don't understand it is not wire. It is a different application of a different set of physics calculations that dynamically shift between Newtonian analysis and quantum calculations of dynamic fluid systems.

fluid calculations are about freely associating molecules, not frozen lattice structures. Each of those two have wholly different expressions of complex impedance function, in the dynamic domain. The fluid has a living moving breathing integration with the signal at the individual molecule/shifting level... whereas the wire is magnitudes less complex with it's known static and calculable impedance functions.

To give you an idea, fiber optic works as well as it does, magnitudes beyond wire... for the very simple reason that the medium is a quasi-fluid. The fluid metal, is of course, a full on fluid.

So it is literally impossible to extrapolate what one knows or expects, into what they might hear. You have to hear it. Expectations in known science mean exactly squat here. Seriously. As serious as can be.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:29 pm 
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Hi Ken,
I really hate to break this to you, but everything follows the same rules of physics all the time in this dimension.

You might be able pass video, but only at or near zero attenuation. The reason for this is that the signal source is 75R if it's old school, or much lower output impedance with a new device. At these impedance levels the wire bloody well should pass those frequencies - but not without higher loss and ringing than proper cables and connections would cause. The actual natural impedance of the cable will be closer to 62R, but calling it 75R is close enough as long as the source and target are properly terminated with 75R.
Quote:
A 5 foot speaker cable (3 of the 4 strands) of the same fluid will also pass 1080P component video, even when terminated with spades

If you think back to the bad old days of rabbit ears and channel 13, you will recall we used to use 300 R lead, like zip cord but with a wider controlled distance between the conductors of the ... 300R lead. And the ends? Why, they were most often terminated with spade connectors (or bare wire clamped with the teeth binding screw). Given that this was used to carry signals of a few hundred MHz, it shouldn't surprise you that you can pass these much lower frequencies through ... spade connectors.
Quote:
A 5 foot speaker cable (3 of the 4 strands) of the same fluid will also pass 1080P component video, even when terminated with spades..

Quote:
People forget or don't understand it is not wire. It is a different application of a different set of physics calculations that dynamically shift between Newtonian analysis and quantum calculations of dynamic fluid systems.

Ken, what goobly-gook are you going on about now? There isn't any fluid involved here at all. There are electrons transferring charge along a "tunnel" full of electrons. The charge travels close enough to the speed of light (compared to what we can perceive) while the actual electrons mosey along at drift velocities. All explained and agreeing with our current understanding of the universe. There are no secrets, hidden truths or anything else hidden from the population. Now, given that we are dealing with physics as we know it, all my previous information holds true and is accurate. The only time your signal tests hold is when the volume control is turned to maximum, or zero attenuation. You throw any impedance in series with those signals in your switch-attenuator unit, it all falls apart and you will see breathtaking amounts of high frequency attenuation. All gone, dissipated inside the resistive element known as .. the volume control.

You don't have a case here Ken. But, what you do have is a thing that causes less damage to a signal than a poorly designed preamplifier. Over half of the preamps made are poorly designed Ken, and your device performs better than they do as long as you have low source impedance and high load resistance (amplifier). Now, if it looks cool you have a market winner. That's an achievement. Just don't lay claim to more than is your due. Don't tell stories of alternate laws of physics either, you don't need to do that. ... and tricks where you pass RF frequencies under special circumstances don't do you credit either. Just tell the truth. You do less damage to the signal than many active designs do. I'll accept that.

Best, Chris


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:59 pm 
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Teo Audio wrote:
People forget or don't understand it is not wire. It is a different application of a different set of physics calculations that dynamically shift between Newtonian analysis and quantum calculations of dynamic fluid systems.

fluid calculations are about freely associating molecules, not frozen lattice structures. Each of those two have wholly different expressions of complex impedance function, in the dynamic domain. The fluid has a living moving breathing integration with the signal at the individual molecule/shifting level... whereas the wire is magnitudes less complex with it's known static and calculable impedance functions.
That statement is not true at all.
Newton–Raphson method is used to find the better approximations to the roots of a real valued function, such as quadratic convergence.
I am then wondering what function would you apply for a liquid that's used to carry electricity instead dynamic force.
Speaking of quantum calculations of dynamic fluid systems, again I'd be curious to know why one will need this for a medium used to carry electricity.

Years ago, I tried to build a 'liquid wire'. In a fluid, to have maximum conductivity we need charged particles (ions).
I've soon realized that this maximum is unreachable because the ions end by saturate the liquid carrier.
I won't enter too deep in the details but unless near 0 kelvin, there's no way to have more ions that atoms in the carrier.
Solid conductors don't have that problem since ions are the carrier. (electricity creates those ions)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:29 am 
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anatech wrote:
You have to drive not only the cable capacitance (that can be a biggie), but also the sometimes non-linear loading of the amplifier input stage.


The output of tube preamps are highly susceptible to the slightest bit of capacitance
in their loads - even with a cathode follower output stage.
Connecting 47pF to the end of an interconnect
will change the shape of a triangle waveform.
In other words, on the output of a tube preamp, use interconnects with a low capacitance.

The part I don't understand is how power amp inputs can have a non linear impedance.
Highly knowledgeable people have also stated this.

Resistance, Capacitance and Inductance all obey Ohm's Law.
As such, R, C and L are linear.

Looking at data sheets for typical input transistors

2SK246 ......... jFET ....... Ciss = 9 pF (typical)
MPSA18 ........ bi polar .... Ccb 1.7pF (typical)

The parasitic capacitance of these transistors, are multiplied by the miller effect.

Also, you once asked why a piano can't be tuned with a frequency counter.
I'll explain this later.


Last edited by Uunderhill on Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:00 am 
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Some excellent, courteously written posts by some well informed members - thanks!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:21 am 
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Nakamichel wrote:
My own class A design has 16 mosfets/ch.
I wouldn't exchange my amps with any other on the market. Even with more money.


We need to talk.
After tinkering with amp designs for years, I've come to the conclusion
that a true class A amp is the way to go.
However, in my experience a class A amp, with +/- 24 Vdc rails
and biased at only 1 amp - will grip a pair of B&W 110 's beyond belief.

My favourite gain device configuration in a classe A power amp is
jFET's ==> bi polars ===> MOSFET's

But I've only tried switching MOSFET's.
Never heard lateral MOSFET's.

Also, there is quite a difference between a regular switching bi polar transistor
and one specifically designed for audio use.
However, the decrease in the voltage drop, across the collect to emitter,
is an issue as a bi polar warms up.

As I've discovered, there is heck of difference between prototyping an amp
and completing a finished DIY project.

Have you tried a Class A amp biased at low currents,
but with a number of output devices ?
Opinions ?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:55 am 
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retiredelectrician wrote:
Side note: I know a U of T student, (huge classic jazz lover for his age I might add) who likes to have good sound but has no real interest in "stereo" (and openly states he knows and cares nothing about stereo as we do), who has a Revox B226 CD player which has variable volume out (and direct out) connected right to an old Bedini 25/25, connected to a set of Energy Reference's, the older rosewood ones where the stand/base is part of the speaker.
When I first saw his stereo I said, "interesting, no pre amp", his reply was, why do a need a pre amp?

Anyone have any thoughts?

If this whole issue comes down to expensive pre amps having a high quality high cost volume control, potentiometer, in the scenario of the Revox B226, if the issue is the volume control in the Revox not being a good one, then how about use the "direct" RCA out and buy the most expensive potentiometer you can, place it in a nice little hammond box, and go Macbook to potentiometer to power amp,,,just a thought is all.


Most active preamps typically have a maximum voltage gain of around 4.
However, I'm of the opinion, that a maximum gain of only 1 is required at reasonable listening levels.

Bottom line is this - whatever is driving your power amp, needs to provide the current to
effectively charge and discharge the input stage of the power amp.
If it can't, dynamics will be sluggish and bass will suffer
the sonics will sound thin.

Power amps with Tubes or jFET's on the input stage are typically easier
to drive than power amps with bi polars transistors on the input - typically.

There are equations to calculate the amount current required to effectively
drive the input of a gain device (ie jFET or Tube).
However, in the end, I use my ears.

Concerning volume attenuators inside a preamp - this is an entire topic within itself.
They seem to be a large determining factor on the sonics
and can get horrifically expensive.

My own approach to volume control is to connect a metal film resistor from the input RCA
straight to the grid of a tube. No input selector.
So there are no contacts at all between the RCA and tube.
Then the input is shunted by a basic alps volume pot.
However, if I wrote this on a particular DIY audio site they would poop all over me.
Shunt volume controls have their disadvantages too.
Most notably the input impedance of the preamp changes, as the volume is changed.

.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:25 am 
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I guess you already know that I can't reveal the schematic of my amp.

What I can tell about it is:
I use 8 pair lateral mosfet/ch (one for CCS)
it is full symmetrical, two amp in one, then 2x +/- 14.14v
full dedicated power supply for every output pair (down to windings)
the input stage AND the driver stage is the same and is made with a composite amplifier, for each output pair
all the composite amplifiers work at +/- 18v full dedicated power supply for each composite amp (edit, 18v not 24v)
each composite amplifier is made with an opa inside the loop of another opa.

Why symmetrical ? Because of the capacitors. With that symmetry, power rails are kept at low voltage.
I'm now at 200 000uf all made with 200x 1000uf Nichicon caps/ch.
4 transformers of 4x 10v 800va per channel. (3200 va)

Each amp dissipate all the time just over 200watts of heat. Heatsinks stabilize at 52° after a long half hour...
And you are right about the power, I litterally destroyed 2 woofers voice coil with a stupid error on the volume.
Lateral mosfet are very the best, not as agressive as bipolars are on high dynamics.
But the best part is by far the linearity once the best biasing point is chosen.

DF is over 800 at 120hz. Since symmetrical design halfs the output impedance,
I had to use more output (and current) to deal with my Kappa's woofers (902-4477 instead original smaller magnet 902-3054).
The 2 woofers are in serie in an isobarik design per channel.

Do you like to hear the real effect of kickdrum not boomy and clear ?
10-15w class A is not enough for that as you said, try a 50w...
104lbs of pure pleasure.


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