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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:02 pm 
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Where is this item you are buying?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:05 pm 
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VegliaAudio wrote:
two2the8 wrote:
I've never used it, but would a service like escrow.com help in a situation like this? https://www.escrow.com/what-is-escrow

Seems this is a US company but yes, something like that would work. But I still don't know how that would be better than PayPal goods and service. You can complain to PP, so you can to Escrow. Not sure if one process is better than the other.


Escrow.com differs from Paypal in that they hold the money in an Escrow account until both parties are satisfied, after which they release the funds. Paypal instead gives the funds to the seller and only takes it away after a dispute. The biggest difference is that some Paypal scammers withdraw funds to their bank then shutdown the Paypal or bank account, so there are no funds to retrieve. Escrow.com also never allows "buyer's remorse" type "refunds" which Paypal might enable through their more liberal complaint process.

No matter what service you use, you need to establish that you trust your seller or buyer to a degree, and a buyer must also do the due diligence necessary to make sure the item actually exists and is in the (physical and working) condition as described before sending payment.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:12 pm 
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Location: Toronto, ON, CA
triathleteman wrote:
Where is this item you are buying?
Ottawa, but that's not the point. I strongly believe this is a great CAM member and I won't have any issue dealing with him based on our correspondence so far. My desire was to figure out, with CAM community help, a way to do this in general, not case by case.

So far, I think we have outlined two methods that offer very reasonable assurances for both parties:
1) Buyer sends deposit that amounts to double the shipping cost. Seller ships using Canada Post COD.
or
2) Seller uses PayPal invoice and shipping label service.

Yes, it is probably possible to scam one another using either of the options, so before you engage in the transaction you would do the usual feedback check, phone call, any other "smell test" you would do anyway.

-- 06 Feb 2018 23:14 --

admin wrote:
Escrow.com differs from Paypal in that they hold the money in an Escrow account until both parties are satisfied, after which they release the funds. Paypal instead gives the funds to the seller and only takes it away after a dispute. The biggest difference is that some Paypal scammers withdraw funds to their bank then shutdown the Paypal or bank account, so there are no funds to retrieve. Escrow.com also never allows "buyer's remorse" type "refunds" which Paypal might enable through their more liberal complaint process.

Useful. Seems they only deal in US dollars and Euros though.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:27 pm 
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VegliaAudio wrote:
admin wrote:
Escrow.com differs from Paypal in that they hold the money in an Escrow account until both parties are satisfied, after which they release the funds. Paypal instead gives the funds to the seller and only takes it away after a dispute. The biggest difference is that some Paypal scammers withdraw funds to their bank then shutdown the Paypal or bank account, so there are no funds to retrieve. Escrow.com also never allows "buyer's remorse" type "refunds" which Paypal might enable through their more liberal complaint process.

Useful. Seems they only deal in US dollars and Euros though.


Yes that's true. I have used them on many occasions and always sent them USD directly. You are exposed to a bit of FX risk but that's part of the limitation. I don't know of any internet escrow service I'd trust that deals in Canada and CAD, and if one such existed I'd still probably go w/ Escrow.com just purely based on past experience.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:00 pm 
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Location: Orillia, ON, CA
VegliaAudio wrote:
I am seeking ideas to complete a remote transaction, with shipping, that is safe for both the seller and the buyer. Here's a short description of both points of view, in my case I am a buyer and the unit is about $1,000.

Seller's point of view:
- wants EMT or bank draft payment
- doesn't want to use PayPal as he heard stories of people trying to scam sellers via PayPal
- doesn't want to use Canada Post COD because of delay in receiving the check and general uncertainty about the COD process

Buyer's point of view:
- doesn't want to use EMT as he has been burnt before with no recourse options
- comfortable with PayPal and used it many times before on both ends of transaction

I would really appreciate some fresh ideas.

Much appreciated!
V

Forget about it and find another one ,..This is without a doubt a scam , on virtual every internet site where members can list items for-sale this one rates at the top of all scams,.....


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:47 pm 
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Location: Queen Charlotte, BC, CA
I plan on selling a couple solid state items pretty soon. Due to recent forum topics I will be taking detailed photographs, inside and out, before packing, and will also photograph the stages of packing them and the completed package at the Post Office. Before advertising, I will verify that all the functions and connections on these units are working.

I will accept most kinds of payment but will not ship until I have the money.
I do not plan on scamming anyone, but the buyer's protection is the opportunity to leave negative feedback if I err.

Post Office Boxes: In an earlier post someone mentioned that they would not ship to PO Boxes. I have encountered this with commercial sellers, especially from the USA. No idea what the problem is south of the border but in Canada PO Boxes are pretty foolproof.
The receiving party gets a card in their PO Box which says that they have a package. Then they go to the counter in the Post Office and a Post Office employee gives them the package. There is personal contact, possibly cameras, and the shipper can specify that the parcel gets signed for. It is much more foolproof than parcels that get dropped at the door for thieves to grab, or the community mailbox at the mercy of the crowbar crowd.

In some small towns the PO Box is the only form of mail and it is frustrating when sellers will not use it. Couriers, if they exist, require someone to be at home, and the delivery times are not predictable.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:08 pm 
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Nothing beats meeting in person, I always bring a friend.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:56 pm 
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Location: Markham, ON, CA
This topic has been flogged pretty well to death IMO. The bottom line is that, in transactions such as these, there has to exist TRUST between buyer and seller. No trust, no deal. Simple.

Sometimes I have to remind myself that this is not a heart-lung machine I am considering purchasing. If the "deal" makes me uncomfortable, I walk away. There are very few exceptional deals or items that cannot be found for sale elsewhere, or at another date.

I prefer to buy in person and only after an audition. The one item I purchased without an audition (as was promised) ended up a damaged amp that was junk. The other 50 articles I have purchased on CAM have all been legitimate, as described, and sold by honest forthright guys. I just got back from a 600 km trip today with a super set of stand-mounts from a great guy who proved his honesty from the beginning.

I have also started "negotiations" more than a few times (as both seller and buyer) that I walked away from.....you CAN pick and choose!

Peace, Tom


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:40 am 
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Thank you all who participated in the discussion and offered help and advice. It goes without saying that both the buyer and the seller should exercise caution and do everything they would usually do before money is involved. That includes phone calls, checking feedback, trusting your guts, other "smell tests", walking away from the deal, etc. All valid points but that was not the intent of my thread. The intent was to arrive, if possible, at an objective, repeatable, fair and safe process to exchange goods for money when transaction is not in person.

This is the summary of our collective findings, as interpreted by me:

1) PayPal - the easiest form for relatively safe transaction, using their invoicing and shipping label service. Seems there are holes in this approach but imo when combined with all the above pre-measures, this method offers relative security combined with ease of use.

2) Collection on Delivery (COD) - safe provided seller and buyer make some precautions. Seller should request a deposit in the amount of double the shipping cost + COD fee. This is to be protected from buyer changing his/her mind and shipment returning back. Buyer's risk is that the package contains dead load instead of real item, as Canada Post won't allow you to open the package without paying first. Some creative ideas for avoiding this risk can be found in the thread.

3) Using Escrow.com service - probably the safest method but costly due to the service fee and the fact that they deal in US dollars so there is also an exchange rate factor. However, sounds like a great idea for expensive items.

For completeness of this "report" I should say that there was also a suggestion of using overnight Money Order but the process was not explained and I couldn't figure out myself how it protects both parties. So, if anyone cares to further elaborate, please do so.

My personal experiences are great using PayPal and COD, never had any issues, but I did get burnt with EMT as a buyer.

Again, thanks so much for the input!
V


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:45 am 
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My suggestion to send a money order by overnight delivery was intended to reduce the wait time for the seller to receive his payment.
The overnight component was not intended to provide protection. The money order does that, but NOTHING provides full protection.
It really seems like you are looking for something that 'checks all the boxes', but that might mean that you should stick to local deals.

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Sorry, Mister Vice President, 'The Handmaid's Tale' is not a documentary.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:01 am 
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Even if you don't want to use PayPal, it is always a good sign when a seller accepts PayPal. It is an indication that the item is as described and for the most part, that the seller is willing to accept the consequences if the item is not as described or the item gets lost in transit.In my opinion, PayPal is the best we have.I have done about 15,000 PayPal transactions in the last 20 years, mostly as a seller and I have only good experiences.

As a side note-I was looking at a piece for sale on CAM in Quebec and the seller does not take PayPal.That means I pass and wait until I find a seller with that item that does accept PayPal.Simple.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:07 am 
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Location: dundas, ON, CA
I've done a few as buyer up to a significant sum but usually under 500 bucks. So far, haven't been burned. The one time it didn't work out was when seller dropped off at one of my Toronto customers and the NAD amp wouldn't change inputs and cd had no led backlight but otherwise working. I'm sure the seller would have refunded and taken back merch but it literally sat in my trunk for a couple of months before testing them. Anyhow, that was only 200 and some elbow grease will fix those issues.

My rule of thumb - I require the seller to send a pic of their drivers license, pick up via a tracked courier with insurance that I set up (for those not familiar, do yourself a favour and get an account with flagshipcompany.com - I can get rates through them that better my discounts in my biz which does a quarter million in courier costs). Also make sure you communicate by text on cell phone so there's a record, get a picture of the packing/boxes prior to shipping and take your own picks of the boxes/packing/merch when unpacking. It's not foolproof but you have a decent idea of who youre dealing with through a series of conversations. I also make it clear that they're free to sell locally while we're working it out.

My thinking with the above is you have a clear written set of expectations on what is being sold/bought, you have the personal info of the seller as much as you can get if there's any fraud, courier is insured and you're covered for damages, the info you have should be sufficient for a small claims court filing if it comes to it that what you recieve is not what you expect and seller refuses to correct the situation.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:19 am 
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Anyone that sends a picture of their driver's licence to a stranger needs their head read.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:23 am 
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Sgt Pepper wrote:
Anyone that sends a picture of their driver's licence to a stranger needs their head read.


DITTO !!! Why not send also photos of your passport and SIN card? ... along with your mother's maiden name.

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1987 Guild Nightbird, 2000 Taylor 310KCE, and Godin 5th Avenue Guitars.

Sorry, Mister Vice President, 'The Handmaid's Tale' is not a documentary.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:25 am 
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You don't need to send copies of your passport or SIN card after you have sent your licence-they can make every document required after they get the licence.Including a new phony licence.Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.


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