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 Post subject: DIY: 2d QRD (Skyline) Diffusor Build
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:59 pm 
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Hey All,

Let me preface this thread with the following: If due to "domestic pressures", your current gear is jammed up against one wall of the livingroom with the TV set projecting forward of the speakers which straddle it- Stop reading this thread now! Hit the back button and go about your business...


Still there? Great, there is hope (and help) for your system! So if you are here then there is a high degree of likelihood that you've taken the first steps to great sound already. I'm referring here to having put some time and energy in placing your speakers and listening chair in the best spots possible within your room. With that out of the way, lets move on.

So as one can pretty clearly surmise from my recent rather lengthy :D thread on my experience with room acoustics, I think room treatment is absolutely essential to great sound. I'm certainly not alone in that regard but I really don't think that the higher-end AV community (retailers and consumers) grasp how big a deal it really is. Over the years I've become pretty convinced this a function of just how expensive most effective commercial room treatment products are. And no Virginia, "egg crate" foam panels are not effective room treatment! Acoustic foam only soaks up high frequencies, unpleasantly deadening our rooms. Now in the case of simple 3" or 4" thick 2' x 4' compressed fiberglass broadband absorber panels like those in the foreground below, even commercial wall panels tend to be pretty affordable. Mine are DIY and more affordable still. They also have built-in diffusive features that no commercial broad band absorber panels I'm aware of share. Typically one hangs these on the walls at all primary reflection points. One should avoid over-deployment of wall-mounted broad band absorption as it can over deaden the room,

Image

Proper bass traps, another key room tuning element, are rather pricey if bought commercially. IMHO, ASC Tube Traps are the best stand-alone bass trapping product made. Did I mention they are freakin' expensive?!? Better still, unless you live near Portland Oregon, the shipping bill is gonna hurt too. Though often referred to as "bass traps", the wall panels above most definitely are not! The small 11" diameter traps in the background of the above photo are DIY. In the picture below of the back of my listening room, the 14" diameter 6' tall traps sitting atop the 16" x 3-1/2' ASC Tube Traps are my DIY creations too. Can you tell the difference? They work the same too. Details of how they were built are found here on the Teres Audio site. A simpler design for an effective bass trap is found here on the Studiotips site. These are built-in affairs though. Unless your speakers have very limited low frequencies, the bigger the better is the rule with bass traps. You want 'em in all 4 corners and ideally from floor-to-ceiling.

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What happens After you've bass trapped your room corners and damped the side wall reflection points but still have an annoying slap echo {like me}? Then you add diffusion to the mix so as to break-up and scatter strong reflections harmlessly without sucking the life outa' your tunes! Diffusion is the final element necessary to coaxing the best possible sounds from your gear.

If your current listening space serves other more pedestrian purposes (a living or family room perhaps? :wink: ) You likely have diffusive elements already present within the room. The catch is they are unlikely to be in the ideal spots. Bookcases with shelves full of randomly sized and arranged books or heavily foliated house plants are examples of "naturally" diffusive objects. Commercially manufactured diffusers tend to offer more predictable results than "winging it" with household objects. Poly cylindrical diffusers along with the more complex QRD "phase grate" diffusors will offer diffusion over a fixed bandwidth offering consistent randomized scattering of reflected sound, predicted by mathematical formulas used to model them. So a properly designed diffuser, founded in "good" mathematics is a good thing. If commercially made, its also an expensive thing. And that folks, brings us to the subject of my build thread.

A DIY "Skyline" 2D QRD Diffusor



'Cuz I'm basically a lazy person, I went looking for examples of DIY QRD diffusers that others had already done the heavy lifting on. That being the crazy mathematic formulas that these things are based on. The DIY model my build is based on is found at the PME Records site here. In this specific instance, I wanted to use a diffuser on the back wall at ear level, 5' behind the listening seat. I'm not gonna get into in detail here but due to a number of factors (my high ceilings and the listening seat's proximity to the proposed diffuser amongst others), a 2D (two dimensional) "Skyline" diffuser was the better solution. Below is a photo of the PME Records design borrowed from their how-to page.

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There is nothing really earth shaking about either building one of these things, or the couple of small modifications I made to the PME Records design. If you have the requisite tool(s)- an electric chop saw at minimum (and for my design modifications, a modest table saw, a jigsaw, an electric drill, and a staple gun- preferably pneumatic), and a significant chunk of free time, then you are good to go.

**Note that I'm assuming that you thoroughly read through the link I posted to the PME Records design. I'm not gonna go into a great deal of detail re-hashing what they've written. Most of my comments and instructions will focus on where my version diverged in the interest of ease of manufacture, secure mounting, and appearance.

My design modifications diverge from the PME Records plan pretty much immediately. Rather then cutting all my four lengths of wood blocks from 2"x2", I used ripped down 2"x4" wherever a pair of identical length stakes were found side by side. There are a lot of paired block lengths when you are building multiples of this 18" square panel design. I'm building a 3' square array of 4 panels and using ripped down 2"x4" in place of paired 2"x2" where possible saves a lot of additional chop saw cuts! Counter-intuitively, 2"x4" lumber is more than twice the width of 2"x2" lumber. Hence the need for a table saw to rip your lengths of 2"x4"s to the precise width of a pair of your 2"x2"s.

As I stated, I'm building a 4 panel array. With the stock PME Records design using exclusively 2"x2" material this requires:

152 pieces 1-7/8" long
152 pieces 3-3/4" long
160 pieces 5-5/8" long
60 pieces 7-1/2" long


For a grand total of 524 accurately measured pieces.

Using my modification of the PME Records design we get:

80 pieces of 2"x2" @ 1-7/8" long
36 pieces of 2"x4" @ 1-7/8" long
48 pieces of 2"x2" @ 3-3/4" long
52 pieces of 2"x4" @ 3-3/4" long
64 pieces of 2"x2" @ 5-5/8" long
48 pieces of 2"x4" @ 5-5/8" long
44 pieces of 2"x2" @ 7-1/2" long
8 pieces of 2"x4" @ 7-1/2" long


For a grand total of 380 accurately measured pieces, almost a 30% reduction in the number of required cuts. When building multiple panels this savings really adds up!

You'll need about 90 board/ft of 2"x2" and 55 board/ft of 2"x4" for the 4 panel build. Make sure that you're 2"x4"s are the same thickness (approx 1-1/2") as your 2"x2"s! There can be some variation between one mill and another. :shock: Fortunately I figured this out prior to cutting all my material or ripping my 2"x4"s down to a 3" width.

If you intend to otherwise follow the PME Records design and paint your creation, make sure you are using a sharp 80 tooth (my saw has a 12" blade) carbide cross cut blade in your saw to get the smoothest end cut possible. Otherwise, you'll be sanding your a$$ off and it'll look like crap.

Another time saving tip is to clamp a piece of 2"x4" to your chop saw fence exactly the required length of your block from the blade. This means you only measure once (to set your "jig" up) for each block length and every block is precisely the same length. When performing this little trick, hold the blade down after completing each cut, release the switch, and allow the blade to spin to a stop prior to lifting the blade and removing your cut block. Otherwise the spinning blade picks up your freshly cut block and chews it up. Pictured below is my pile o' neatly stacked blocks completed earlier this week.

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The next place where my design diverges from the PME Records diffusor is the back panel. Rather than attempting to wall mount a 100 pound 3'x3' panel through the pseudo-randomly placed "0" spots on the panel where there is no glued block, I've lengthened my back panel 2.5" top and bottom. This permits me to drill holes and run sturdy screws with washers through the 3/8" thick sheet of hardboard anywhere along it's width, top and bottom. A 3' wide panel ought to engage a minimum of two studs in the wall behind it, possibly three, as they are typically on 16" centers. My walls are actually on 12" centers so three studs top and bottom is a piece of cake. Now I'll sleep better! Photos to come...

The final place where my design differs is in the use of a frame wrapped around the diffusor array. After a single panel test layout of the blocks, I realized two things: Getting into all the crazy nooks and crannies to paint this thing, even with an air sprayer, would be a horribly frustrating task, and thoroughly sanding, then priming, then sanding each individual block prior to assembly and final paint, would be a horribly time consuming task! Did I mention I'm basically a lazy person?!? I'm gonna cover the entire contraption with the same Guilford of Maine FR701 acoustic fabric used on all my other DIY and commercially made room treatment. The wrap around frame is made up of 4 pieces of 5/8" birch ply cut in 8" wide strips. My back panel has been widened and lengthened to accommodate the thickness of the ply. Using my drill and jigsaw, I'm going to then remove sections of the left and right hand sides of the wrap around frame. I'm basically cutting out large windows to ensure that even reflections coming in from extremely oblique angles can still access the diffusor. Photos to come...

Today's crap weather drove me inside preventing further progress on my other diffuser project- 70 sq ft of "polys" for high on my side walls. So today after 2 more test layouts of the blocks, I trucked up to the new Rona Superstore (with their brand new, still accurate panel saw) and got the back panel cut to size. I then glued and screwed the 8" high birch ply frame to the back panel and test fit my block layout one last time... :lol: Woohoo! the blocks fit precisely within the frame.

Well thats all until Monday for the Skyline diffusor. As soon as the wife returns from her current TV shoot with the camera flash card dongle I'll post additional pics. I've got some sorta free time this weekend (watching our wee one) so I should get a bunch of the sanding and priming done on the mdf "poly" diffuser framework providing we have at least one dry day. That parallel project will shortly have its own build thread.

To be continued...

Happy Trails!
Vince@Freewheelcycle.com

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"Live fast. Ride hard... and have a good looking bike!"


Last edited by MTB Vince on Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:46 pm 
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A little more detail on Friday's assembly of the back panel and surrounding frame which I will be stretching acoustically transparent fabric over:

I trimmed the 4 pieces of 5/8" ply to frame in the sides of the panel with my chop saw. The 12" blade just squeeks the 8" depth of my ply. After all those test layouts & measurements, It would appear that 35.5" square gives me sufficient space to fit the 4 panel's worth of blocks with a little wiggle room for variation in block size. I just used simple butt joints, and then glued and screwed the 4 pieces of ply to the 3/8" hardboard back panel using No More Nails construction adhesive and drywall screws. I used 1-1/2" screws for the 4 corners of the plywood frame and 1-1/4" to screw the ply frame to the back panel. All the screws were piloted and countersunk before hand to ensure that my ply didn't split when the screws were driven in. If you intend to use a router and a 1/4 round bit to round over all the plywood edges as I did, be sure to keep track of the exact depth of the screws you use and leave yourself some room between the screw heads and the soon-to-be-rounded edges of the plywood butt joints.

While "little man" was having his afternoon nap on Sunday and later in the evening after I got my toddler Son off to bed I took down the Boltz CD storage unit and attendant Ikea lighting pictured on my back wall. This is where the Skyline diffuser will reside when completed. I was kicking myself a little over this one. I just installed the bigger Boltz rack in place of my older wooden storage racks a few months ago and it was a real ordeal. Gotta love it when a failure to plan properly entails doing a job twice. It took all evening to reconfigure the rack to fit along one wall of my gear closet. While re-installing and reconfiguring the rack with additional parts I'd ordered a week ago, I discover I failed to order some critical bits. Doooh! I guess I'm waiting another week for the missing parts before my CD collection can be put away properly... That was it for Sunday.

Pullin' the rack down only a few months after installing it :roll: to make room for the diffusor array...

Image

Happy Trails!
Vince@Freewheelcycle.com

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"Live fast. Ride hard... and have a good looking bike!"


Last edited by MTB Vince on Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:34 pm 
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Monday was very productive. The new Nanny is here on Mondays. :D I cut the "windows" out of the four pieces of ply which make up the "grill cloth" frame. Then out came the router with a 1/4" round-over bit. As the pictures suggest, I cut away as much of the ply grill frame as possible to minimize any negative effect of the frame on the diffusers effectiveness. This was also the thinking behind my rounding all the grill frame edges, inside and out.

Later, in the evening, I began laying out and gluing the blocks into place within the frame. I somewhat under-estimated how time consuming a job this would be. Five hours and six tubes of No More Nails later, the 9 square foot Skyline was complete- from an acoustic standpoint anyway. It looks kinda cool architecturally in an unfinished way. Almost a shame to hide all that work behind the cloth covering...

Minor variation in lumber size turned out to be a major pain. If I ever build more of these things I'd leave myself another 1/4" (for a total of 1/2" per 18" wide panel in your array) of wiggle room per panel within the grill frame. In addition, I'd be tempted to use plain old carpenter's white glue that takes longer to set to permit easier adjustments to block-to-block alignment during assembly. With all the major assembly complete, the panel weighs about 100 pounds. Picture hooks ain't gonna cut it! Just a little paint on the mounting tabs and stapling on the GoM fabric to go. At 3am however, I was clockin' out for the day! Pics to follow...

Happy Trails!
Vince@Freewheelcycle.com

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:00 am 
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Wow... :D

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:15 am 
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RoyHifi wrote:
Wow... :D


Wait'll ya see the photos of the thing I'll be posting tonight (when the wife returns from her trip with the camera flash card reader)! All I've got left to do is a couple of coats of paint on the mounting "flanges" and to staple on the fabric covering. It looks pretty unreal in its naked state.

Happy Trails!
Vince@Freewheelcycle.com

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"Live fast. Ride hard... and have a good looking bike!"


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:28 am 
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OK... I'll be waiting...

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:21 pm 
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Aaaargh!!! :oops: I drove out of my parking lot late for an appointment with my laptop on the roof of the car! One 2 week old Mac Book- gone...

I've been flying solo the past 10 days while my spouse was away in India on a shoot. I haven't quite nailed down the odd acceleration effect that a toddler has upon the passage of time. The little guy and I were doing fine for time this morning but then he drops an epic last-minute dump in his Pampers just as we are on our way out the door. In my mad post-dump-clean-up rush to get him loaded in the car and the dog out, my new Mac was forgotten on top of the car. I didn't realize what I'd done 'til I returned home an hour later. :cry: Back tracked and reported it to the local police but no joy and no pile of electronic wreckage along the roadside. Fortunately I had a "Time machine" back-up of my drive contents from a day or two prior.

Could have been worse I suppose. Could have remembered the computer and forgot the kid. :wink: Seriously though, Its interesting how parenthood has put a new perspective on calamities like this. Prior to Dad-hood, I would have been a lot more bent about an event like this.

Well no pictures 'til tomorrow and the purchase of a new Mac Book. All our camera flash card dongles are fire wire so they won't work with my shop HP laptop I'm using now. I guess I gotta sell a few extra bikes this weekend...

Happy Trails!
Vince@Freewheelcycle.com

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:36 pm 
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Vince, I can confess to having done a similar thing back a few years ago. No, not the kid and the epic dump, though I have had my share of those, but forgetting a laptop on the top of a vehicle. In my case it wasn't a Mac but a Thinkpad. It was a company lease jobby so no biggie to me other than embarrassment amongst my fellow sales reps.

So you are not alone.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:25 am 
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Well after a brief technical disruption in service, here are the promised pics of the DIY Skyline.

The first couple photos are of the 5/8" plywood grill frame sides being glued and screwed to the 3/8" hardboard back panel. Of course there was a final test fit of the block layout in X and Y dimensions to ensure I had the grill frame dimensions right (measure six times, construct once!).

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Image

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Next up was using marking out the window cuts in the grill frames, drilling holes at the corners of the cuts, and removing the material with the jigsaw. Then after a little bit of work with a sanding block to straighten out and smooth the cut edges, I used my router with a round-over bit to smooth all the corners.

Image

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Finally, the great glue-athon begins. This pic is 1-1/2 hours into the 6 hour, 3am gluing marathon!

Image

And all blocks in place the next morning...

Image

And finally, painting the exposed mounting "flanges" which won't be covered in fabric. In the background you can see the zillion pieces of mdf framing which will frame in my poly diffusor build project. This will shortly have its own thread. This as far as I've progressed to-date. Pics of the completed panel to follow...

Image

Happy Trails!
Vince@Freewheelcycle.com

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:25 pm 
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This evening I completed construction of the Skyline diffusor by covering all but the mounting flanges with Guilford of Maine FR701 "medium grey" acoustically transparent fabric. This required a bolt of fabric of course, sharp scissors, some aerosol spray adhesive (I used Loctite branded stuff but there are many available at your local lumberyard/hardware emporium), and a staple gun, preferably pneumatic. I love air tools! :D If you suck at wrapping Christmas gifts, you may want to enlist your spouse's assistance with folding and finishing the corners :wink: . The three pic below kinda speak for themselves.

Image

Image

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Once again, it really is too bad that finishing the individual blocks so they could be seen naked wasn't practical. Now that the panel is complete, it just looks like an oversize, overweight version of the abffuser panels which already inhabit my listening room walls. The stapler scuffed up the fresh grey paint on the mounting flanges a little. I'll touch that up after the panel is mounted, then add a final pic or two. At 100 pounds or so mounting it to the wall is gonna be a two or three guy job...

Happy Trails!
Vince@Freewheelcycle.com

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:44 pm 
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Vince

Been watching your project.

Can you measure room with & without panel ?
Do you have the means ?

Should the back be damped or just screwed to wall ?

Interesting Idea though , wonder if would be more effective to have entire wall done this way....

Brian


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:10 am 
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krazyclocks wrote:
Vince

Been watching your project.

Can you measure room with & without panel ?
Do you have the means ?


Hey Brian,

I've got gear to measure frequency response and decay time (-much more germane to room treatment effectiveness), but only up to 500Hz as it is only the bass/low mid region which Meridian's MRC (decay time based Room Correction) measures and acts upon. Unfortunately this is where my diffusor just kicks in. My particular diffuser design has an effective operating bandwidth of about 500Hz to 5 kHz. So until such a time as I obtain a more sophisticated wide-band measurement suite, appropriate sound card, and calibrated mic for my computer, reports of the effectiveness will have to be anecdotal.

krazyclocks wrote:
Should the back be damped or just screwed to wall?


Screwing the panel to the wall will damp any possibility of vibration. FWIW, with a 3/8" back panel out of inert hardboard, glued and screwed to an 8" deep ply frame, not to mention 9 sq. feet of wooden blocks glued on end using 6 tubes of construction adhesive- It wasn't gonna rattle anyhow! :lol:

krazyclocks wrote:
Interesting Idea though , wonder if would be more effective to have entire wall done this way....


Were I running a two channel system, It would undoubtably have been beneficial to scatter additional arrays of Skylines across the back wall. The entire wall would be unnecessary as the folks from the BBC discovered when they were performing their ground breaking experiments with Skyline diffusors in the late '80s. However, as I'm running a multi-channel set-up and thus have another pair of speakers along the back wall, additional Skylines across the wall won't work. My proximity to the back wall won't give a diffusor located adjacent a surround speaker time to integrate properly. I am gonna put an additional 4' tall x 3' wide Poly diffuser immediately above the Skyline on the rear wall. To either side of the Skyline between each surround speaker and the diffuser stack, I intend to experiment with absorptive panels.

Happy Trails!
Vince@Freewheelcycle.com

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"Live fast. Ride hard... and have a good looking bike!"


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:49 am 
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Great thread!!!!!
The speaker room interface is by far far the most important. It is nice to see this stuff getting posted here on CAM. Thanks for taking the time to post.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:07 am 
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Just thought be nice to see the results in measurement , easier to see then describe results by ear.

I was not thinking rattle so much as decouple to wall to be most effective.

I think you are on the right track though , fix the room...

I realize i'm just not that serious about it , i must share room for other purpose.
My diffuser is dozens of clocks everywhere !

I forgot you are the Meridian guy , hey since you are not 100% happy with your SME V trade you for my M10s ? !

Anyway keep posting interesting subject.

Brian


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:48 am 
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krazyclocks wrote:
Just thought be nice to see the results in measurement , easier to see then describe results by ear.


Hey Brian,

I'm not sure just how many CAM folk would understand the RT60 decay time vs frequency measurement graphs involved anyway.The bottom line is that appropriately used diffusive elements will break up and scatter harmful first reflections. The successful result is something any audio enthusiast can easily appreciate, a more believe sound-stage and imaging. And unlike relying strictly on absorption to deal with these early reflections, we avoid over damping our listening space.

krazyclocks wrote:
I was not thinking rattle so much as decouple to wall to be most effective.


The mechanism by which the QRD diffusor works makes decoupling it from the surface it rests upon unnecessary. Now the Poly diffusers I'm building in another thread can actually have the cavity behind sealed up, and then by drilling a carefully calculated number and size of holes in the thin curved face, your diffuser can do double duty as a tuned cavity Hemholtz bass trap.

krazyclocks wrote:
I think you are on the right track though , fix the room...

I realize i'm just not that serious about it , i must share room for other purpose.
My diffuser is dozens of clocks everywhere !


There is no question of whether attending to your room acoustics is a good think. Frankly, no other improvement you can make in any part of your system will have as beneficial or significant an effect on the performance of your system.

As far as your plethora of clocks goes, well the only music playback I would imagine that your clocks would add any realism to, would be a certain classic Pink Floyd number. :wink:

krazyclocks wrote:
I forgot you are the Meridian guy , hey since you are not 100% happy with your SME V trade you for my M10s ? !


Not very likely Brian, I'm the guy who advised you on how to return them to proper functionality. I remember your photos and description of just how beat upon they were! Besides vinyl isn't the priority it once was in two channel rig. 95% of the way there is just fine with regards to the tone arm I currently own.

krazyclocks wrote:
Anyway keep posting interesting subject.

Brian


Will do Brian. Thanks for your interest.

Happy Trails!
Vince@Freewheelcycle.com

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"Live fast. Ride hard... and have a good looking bike!"


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