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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:02 pm 
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I just got myself an Ayre C-5xe, I know the MP means Minimum phase digital filter, it's said the MP gets good results, but it would be cost several hundred dollars, does it worth?
Hopefully some experiencers on this could give out your points, thanks so much for your inputs.

Jam


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:45 pm 
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Location: Hamilton, ON, CA
BIGJAM wrote:
I just got myself an Ayre C-5xe, I know the MP means Minimum phase digital filter, it's said the MP gets good results, but it would be cost several hundred dollars, does it worth?
Hopefully some experiencers on this could give out your points, thanks so much for your inputs.

Jam


Congrat's on your purchase. The best (sounding) digital filters are Linear Phase types -likely the type used on your existing C-5xe (non Mp).

I'd suggest you look into some software programs (at low or no cost) to evaluate filter type performance/sound -the program selected will provide instructions.

I have a Gustard X20 PRO DAC that offers 6-7 user available filter types including MP Slow/Fast, Apodizing and even a 'Hybrid' option -in addition to LP. Repeated listening and filter selection engaged one-after-the-other revealed that 95% of the time the best sound would 'land on' not only Linear Phase -but 'Brickwall', no less !

I'd stick with what you have (non Mp). If you opt for the "upgrade", ensure both filter types (LP/MP) remain available.

pj


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:21 am 
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Thanks PJ,

Your right, the xe version is already good enough to me, despite what a filter inside. Cost a few hundred dollars to do the MP upgrading, not just about money I think, by far I will choose to stay with the original C-5, at least for quite a while.
Thank you for your points.

Jam


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:05 am 
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BIGJAM wrote:
Thanks PJ,

Your right, the xe version is already good enough to me, despite what a filter inside. Cost a few hundred dollars to do the MP upgrading, not just about money I think, by far I will choose to stay with the original C-5, at least for quite a while.
Thank you for your points.

Jam


Hi Jam: Good call. Allocate the money towards better cabling (Interconnect -IC- and or Digital cable) if there is room for (cable) improvement within your set-up.
Premium quality/sounding cable results in profound SQ improvements -some even mimicking the SQ 'effects' that different (digital) filter impart.

Enjoy that fine CDP/DAC !

pj


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:25 am 
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Location: Red Deer, AB, CA
BIGJAM wrote:
I just got myself an Ayre C-5xe, I know the MP means Minimum phase digital filter, it's said the MP gets good results, but it would be cost several hundred dollars, does it worth?
Hopefully some experiencers on this could give out your points, thanks so much for your inputs.

Jam

Have had the C5XE in my system since 2006 and have no desire to change it. Basically the best one-box digital solution I have been able to find for under $10,000...haven't heard anything better and I do not have the MP upgrade as of yet.

But I have been in communication with Ayre and there are some benefits to the upgrade...albeit minimal.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:45 am 
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I guess the MP gets the player sound a little more airy. Someone could tell?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:52 am 
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I bought my Ayre C-5xe in 2007 and it was upgraded to MP version when it was available. For me, this upgrade make the sound more airy and improve the rhythm and the pace of the music. Base on my experiences and setup, the cost of the upgrade is fully justified. I think the C-5xe MP is always one of the best player under 10k.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:02 am 
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yl28s2000 wrote:
I bought my Ayre C-5xe in 2007 and it was upgraded to MP version when it was available. For me, this upgrade make the sound more airy and improve the rhythm and the pace of the music. Base on my experiences and setup, the cost of the upgrade is fully justified. I think the C-5xe MP is always one of the best player under 10k.


Does the unit retain its previous digital filter (I presume a Linear Phase (LP)) type ?

Can you choose the filter type -or is it Minimum Phase (MP) only ?

pj


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:35 am 
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From the manual “The digital filter of the Ayre C-5xeMP features two user-selectable algorithms. A selector switch is located on the rear panel. One algorithm produces greater accuracy in the time domain and is labeled “Listen”. The other algorithm produces greater accuracy in the frequency domain and is labeled “Measure”. Normally the selector switch is set to the “Listen” position when listening to music. However some listeners may prefer the additional high-frequency energy provided by the “Measure” position. This switch only affects the analog outputs, and not the digital audio output.”

Base on my reading, The Ayre’s MP filter is the “Listen” mode and the Craven filter is the “Measure” mode. My player is in “Listen” mode.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:02 am 
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yl28s2000 wrote:
From the manual “The digital filter of the Ayre C-5xeMP features two user-selectable algorithms. A selector switch is located on the rear panel. One algorithm produces greater accuracy in the time domain and is labeled “Listen”. The other algorithm produces greater accuracy in the frequency domain and is labeled “Measure”. Normally the selector switch is set to the “Listen” position when listening to music. However some listeners may prefer the additional high-frequency energy provided by the “Measure” position. This switch only affects the analog outputs, and not the digital audio output.”

Base on my reading, The Ayre’s MP filter is the “Listen” mode and the Craven filter is the “Measure” mode. My player is in “Listen” mode.


Thanks for sharing. The 'Listen' and Measure' is something of a misnomer (it implies one as superior in the 'Time' domain, and the other in Bandwidth (frequency extension). That assertion has no basis in fact: LP filters are superior in the Time, Phase, Amplitude and Frequency domains. Period.

That MP filters trade frequency extension, impaired slew-rate/amplitutude performance in exchange for some imaginary "pre-ringing" phenomenon is highly suspect -at best. Hence, partly, the strong objection to the Mostly Questionable Algorithm desires by Stuart/Craven -their insistence on manipulating original digital Masters (files) in order to compliment the technically flawed MP filter implementation that MQA is pretty much all about.

Additionally, I find Ayre's use of such descriptors a bit condescending; simply state Linear Phase (LP) or Minimum Phase (LP), or Apodizing MP filter for clarification. I suspect Ayre's use of "Listen" to be a code word (lol) for their MP filter -while 'Measure' that of LP ?

In the end, it matters not but your enjoyment of whatever you feel works best.

I would suggest listener's give another listen to LP filters (if available on their Minimum Phase
CDP/DAC's) and note the "speed" of signal tracking/recreation quite noticeable when comparing MP to LP.

As opposed to those who claim inconsequential SQ differences (in filter selection), I feel there is an enormous distinction that can make/break the enjoyment of reproduced music. Having both filter types available (in models that swear by/use exclusively MP filters) is key and should be both sought and expected in modern DAC's/CDP's.

Ayre manufactures some beautifully built kit. It's good to know that both filter types remain available on their digital products.

pj


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:00 am 
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Location: Etobicoke, ON, CA
Thanks to the above inputs.

It's said one Ayre dealer, the Absolute Audio in Calgary trained by the Ayre to be capable of doing this MP upgrading job.
Maybe next Spring I would call them? Not sure yet, but it's a very attractive thing to think about it, isn't it?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:25 am 
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FYI, my Ayre C-5xe was upgraded at local dealer for 200$.

Y.L.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:11 am 
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BIGJAM wrote:
Thanks to the above inputs.

It's said one Ayre dealer, the Absolute Audio in Calgary trained by the Ayre to be capable of doing this MP upgrading job.
Maybe next Spring I would call them? Not sure yet, but it's a very attractive thing to think about it, isn't it?


Hi: The MP 'job' (I suspect -lol) is simply a small DAC circuit board -with the chip maker's MP filter engaged, or of course Ayre's OEM MP modification. Likely, this new DAC 'chip' plugs into an existing circuit board devised for easy 'field' upgrades. (Another who replied stated a $200. fee/charge -back in 2006?).
This I suspect would include the price of the board (at most, 0.5 hour labor time) and to to install/test.

You know, in listening to some Internet radio recently (via my DAC -that enables me to switch from 7-filter types) I went through them 'blindly', and stopped on the one I felt was most balanced (tonally), of superior clarity, 'speed'/dynamics and as I walked up to see the selection, low-and-behold "Brickwall" it was -yet again. The differences are so obvious, I find it difficult to comprehend those that claim subtle (SQ) differences.
(I'm guessing the 'Brickwall' filter is a LP type -as the term I've only known to exist with Linear Phase filters, but really have not investigated, nor verified -lol).

I'd use the $200-$300. on an upgraded digital cable, or analog interconnect for use with your DAC.
To me, it would be money better spent.

Whatever you decide, keep enjoying ...

peter


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:32 pm 
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yl28s2000 wrote:
FYI, my Ayre C-5xe was upgraded at local dealer for 200$.

Y.L.

Could you please tell the dealer information where you got the MP upgrading?

Thanks so much.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:36 pm 
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http://filtronique.com/en/

Y.L.


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