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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:08 am 
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Location: Sherbrooke, QC, CA
Hello,

I am in search of some inputs about my current situation, about what I could do next.

My initial setup was geared towards movie watching, that is :
- B&W CM5 as fronts
- Marrantz SR6007 as HT receiver
- Velodyne SPL-1500 as subwoofer
- (other components are not part of the problem)

Now, I've decided to tune my setup for music listening (as well as keeping watching movies).

So what I did in first place is replace the CM5 by CM8 S2. I've only changed that. Soon enough after that, when listening music at high volume in the Marrantz "Pure direct" mode, the receiver started clipping (btw when I say "clip", I mean that the device shuts itself down).

Based on a recommendation from a friend of mine, I added to the setup a Roksan Caspian M2 integrated amplifier.

After only three songs, to my deepest deception, the Roksan also clipped ! On the Roksan, the volume was about ~48% of the device's maximum.

I made the observation that the problem occurs when songs have deep, loud bass. Other lesser importance considerations are that I am getting my music from high quality FLAC files, coming from a Cambridge Audio DAC. Also, The CM8 are connected in the woofer port, and the jumper goes to the other port, for other channels (no bi-wire, no bi-amp).

Now, I am considering reverting back, or maybe some of you would have an idea of what's going on, and what to do ?

Thank you,
Eric


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:37 am 
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Have you tried it with the subwoofer disconnected and just wiring the speakers?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:53 am 
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Location: Richmond Hill, ON, CA
Very simply, the subwoofer is sucking more power than the amp can handle. Transients are fare higher demand than the continuous power.
I have to assume that this is a passive sub, An active sub, with its own built-in amp, should relieve the stress on your amp.
Edit: No, I see the Velodyne is an active sub.
Do you have the CM8s hooked dirct to the amp or through the sub? If direct, try through the sub.


Cheers,
Alec


Last edited by Alec_124c41 on Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:54 am 
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Location: Sherbrooke, QC, CA
Hi banerjba and Alec_124c41, thanks for asking. I did not try that indeed. But how could a setup like CM5+subwoofer be fine, and another like CM8s2+subwoofer making the ampli shutting down ? The subwoofer is self-powered (Active), connected with RCA.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:03 am 
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Alec_124c41 wrote:
Very simply, the subwoofer is sucking more power than the amp can handle. Transients are fare higher demand than the continuous power.
I have to assume that this is a passive sub, An active sub, with its own built-in amp, should relieve the stress on your amp.

Cheers,
Alec


I believe that the Velodyne 1500R a powered sub?

-- 10 Aug 2018 08:05 --

Alec_124c41 wrote:
Very simply, the subwoofer is sucking more power than the amp can handle. Transients are fare higher demand than the continuous power.
I have to assume that this is a passive sub, An active sub, with its own built-in amp, should relieve the stress on your amp.

Cheers,
Alec


I believe that the Velodyne 1500R a powered sub?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:05 am 
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Hello brf, yes indeed it is a powered sub.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:09 am 
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If the CM*s are connected to the sub outputs, try raising the crossover frequency. This should shift more of the bass demand to the sub's amp.

Cheers,
Alec


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:19 am 
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For reference I use a Marantz NR1502 as a preamp for the Audyssey; main speakers are powered by a separate Class D Audio power amp.

The CM8 S2 is listed as nominal 8Ohm but minimum 3Ohm...So a fairly tough load for an amp. My first suggestion is that you set up the Roksan with volume at about noon and go through a full Audyssey set-up on the Marantz. In fact, I highly recommend that you factory reset the Marantz and start like it was brand new.

Note: there are so many settings on the Marantz that it is easy for a source to have been set low at some point and that could actually be a major problem why you need to crank things so high.

It should then automatically go through the initial set-up so you can redo:
- the input identification and level setting
- calibrate the speaker settings

2nd note: you only use the calibration microphone for the main listening spot. Make a set-up (use pillows, backpack, etc.) to get the microphone to be even with your ears/ center of your head. Then just move it within 6 inches or so of that spot. DO NOT move it around 2-3 other seating spots or the calibration will sound like crap.

3rd note: I suspect that the pre-out on the Marantz inverts the polarity. If it warns you that your main speakers are out of phase then this is true. You should reverse the wiring to them (move red to black, black to red) to fix the polarity. Reversed polarity definitely negatively affects bass.

Make sure you don't enable:
- Audyssey dynamic EQ
- Audyssey dynamic volume

or any other whiz-bang features you may have. These make normal stereo sound like crap.

I always test the sound using both Audyssey setting as well as bypass L/R to make sure something didn't get messed up in the calibration. The difference should be mostly subtle unless you have a lot of problems with your room.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:30 am 
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Location: St.Catharines, ON, CA
More power.Headroom is your friend.
Large room volumes eat SPL also.

G


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:57 am 
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Location: Sherbrooke, QC, CA
Hello fifthbusiness you said something that seems interesting !

Do you say that I could send the preout of my Marrantz to the Roksan, just for amplifying the CM8, and that could work as well for movies (in 5.1) that for listening music ?? That would be awesome because for now, I have to plug and unplug the speakers from the Marantz to the Roksan for music, and switch it back for movies.

If this correct, I though see a problem with that, which is I think that the Marrantz would not handle the signal as nicely as if I only use the Roksan... Because I would have to use the Marrantz, in pure direct mode. Now, I only use the DAC --> Roksan --> speakers and subfoofer via Preout 1.

Any thoughts on this ?


fifthbusiness wrote:
For reference I use a Marantz NR1502 as a preamp for the Audyssey; main speakers are powered by a separate Class D Audio power amp.

The CM8 S2 is listed as nominal 8Ohm but minimum 3Ohm...So a fairly tough load for an amp. My first suggestion is that you set up the Roksan with volume at about noon and go through a full Audyssey set-up on the Marantz. In fact, I highly recommend that you factory reset the Marantz and start like it was brand new.

Note: there are so many settings on the Marantz that it is easy for a source to have been set low at some point and that could actually be a major problem why you need to crank things so high.

It should then automatically go through the initial set-up so you can redo:
- the input identification and level setting
- calibrate the speaker settings

2nd note: you only use the calibration microphone for the main listening spot. Make a set-up (use pillows, backpack, etc.) to get the microphone to be even with your ears/ center of your head. Then just move it within 6 inches or so of that spot. DO NOT move it around 2-3 other seating spots or the calibration will sound like crap.

3rd note: I suspect that the pre-out on the Marantz inverts the polarity. If it warns you that your main speakers are out of phase then this is true. You should reverse the wiring to them (move red to black, black to red) to fix the polarity. Reversed polarity definitely negatively affects bass.

Make sure you don't enable:
- Audyssey dynamic EQ
- Audyssey dynamic volume

or any other whiz-bang features you may have. These make normal stereo sound like crap.

I always test the sound using both Audyssey setting as well as bypass L/R to make sure something didn't get messed up in the calibration. The difference should be mostly subtle unless you have a lot of problems with your room.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:18 am 
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Location: Toronto, ON, CA
You could use the pre-out on the Marantz to an input on the Roksan. Would it sound as "good"? You would need to try...IMHO something does not seem right if you need to crank the amp that far and then get clipping.

Your main problem is lack of power. You need a bigger power amp first before more messing around.

To be honest all that switching of speakers back and forth is a problem. One day you might get something wrong such as, worst case, shorting the amp...

I recommend picking one amplification method for the set-up. Personally I prefer the Audyssey for my set-up and room. And I can watch movies and listen to SACDs as well.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:48 am 
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Location: Sherbrooke, QC, CA
Thanks for that fifthbusiness,

could you explain a bit more on that Audyssey ? The only thing I think about Audyssey the the speaker configuration with the special mic, that we normally do only the first time we setup the room, but it seems to me unrelated to the situation...

fifthbusiness wrote:
You could use the pre-out on the Marantz to an input on the Roksan. Would it sound as "good"? You would need to try...IMHO something does not seem right if you need to crank the amp that far and then get clipping.

Your main problem is lack of power. You need a bigger power amp first before more messing around.

To be honest all that switching of speakers back and forth is a problem. One day you might get something wrong such as, worst case, shorting the amp...

I recommend picking one amplification method for the set-up. Personally I prefer the Audyssey for my set-up and room. And I can watch movies and listen to SACDs as well.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:11 am 
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A bit confusing

If I am correct, the Roksan does not have HT bypass, so if you wanted to do a HT/2ch hybrid system, the Roksan was not the best choice. What you have there (from what I can tell) is two systems. A HT and a 2ch.

So, you are going to need to switch wires around every time you want to do music or HT.

Your best choice would have been an integrated amp with HT bypass.
Second best just a straight power amp hooked up to the Marantz

A couple opinions of mine:

The Marantz can not drive towers anywhere near properly when it is the sole amp in a HT setup.

I never use Audyssey or any other auto setup. I tune by ear. I think they are terrible, especially when you like to drive your system near its limits.

The Roksan should power those towers. Something is up if there is a problem there I think.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:16 am 
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Location: Sherbrooke, QC, CA
Forbes_2,

could you suggest me a model or two that has this HT bypass ?

Thank you,
Eric

Forbes_2 wrote:
A bit confusing

If I am correct, the Roksan does not have HT bypass, so if you wanted to do a HT/2ch hybrid system, the Roksan was not the best choice. What you have there (from what I can tell) is two systems. A HT and a 2ch.

So, you are going to need to switch wires around every time you want to do music or HT.

Your best choice would have been an integrated amp with HT bypass.
Second best just a straight power amp hooked up to the Marantz

A couple opinions of mine:

The Marantz can not drive towers anywhere near properly when it is the sole amp in a HT setup.

I never use Audyssey or any other auto setup. I tune by ear. I think they are terrible, especially when you like to drive your system near its limits.

The Roksan should power those towers. Something is up if there is a problem there I think.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:19 am 
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ricke666 wrote:
Thanks for that fifthbusiness,

could you explain a bit more on that Audyssey ? The only thing I think about Audyssey the the speaker configuration with the special mic, that we normally do only the first time we setup the room, but it seems to me unrelated to the situation...

fifthbusiness wrote:
You could use the pre-out on the Marantz to an input on the Roksan. Would it sound as "good"? You would need to try...IMHO something does not seem right if you need to crank the amp that far and then get clipping.

Your main problem is lack of power. You need a bigger power amp first before more messing around.

To be honest all that switching of speakers back and forth is a problem. One day you might get something wrong such as, worst case, shorting the amp...

I recommend picking one amplification method for the set-up. Personally I prefer the Audyssey for my set-up and room. And I can watch movies and listen to SACDs as well.


On my Marantz, when I set it up for the first time (or after a factory reset) it will first ask to verify the sources. So you go through the sources one by one and play something; the Marantz verifies the input signal level and can adjust (-12dB to +12dB range) quite a wide range. So if you had one brand of DVD player and swapped to another...well, you should check the input level again.

Default input level is 0dB meaning the Marantz doesn't do anything. You can check if it did anything for a given source by looking at "Source Level" while you have it selected. So, set the Marantz to "BluRay" and then check "Source Level".

I know for my turntable I run through the CD input and the Marantz applied +3dB boost or something like that. 0dB setting the volume is much lower and then I would need to turn the volume higher. Not a huge deal but if your source is really mismatched to the amp then I think you will get problems - and -12dB drop to a source could mess things up.

Factory reset puts all of these back to 0dB.

Then you run through the Audyssey room correction. Again, it is critical to only put the microphone at the main listening spot - basically at the center of your head when you sit there. You should only move the microphone small amounts such as three inches to the left, three inches to the right, three inches forward, three inches back around that center spot.

Then the correction calculation will give a good result.

During this step the very first step (it will be the left front speaker) is the most critical measurement since everything else is based from it. So if it highlights phase is wrong or you have some loud noise overlap with its chirp then you will get poor room correction. Do it again. If phase is highlighted then polarity has been flipped somewhere; swapping speaker cable connections should fix this.

When you finish the calibration do not enable the other features it asks about: dynamic EQ and dynamic volume.

Then check the results. Speaker distances should match reality and you should not have weird offsets between them. If you do then something went wrong with the calibration.

Note: when I perform the speaker calibration I use two pieces of string, cut to the same length, to ensure that the first microphone position is pretty much exactly the same distance from the L/R speakers. This makes a very big difference on the result.


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