Canuck Audio Mart Hifi and Audio ForumCanuck Audio Mart Hifi and Audio Forum
It is currently Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:38 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Forum rules


The Cables forum is intended for those who believe cables make a difference in how their systems sound. If you do not believe in cables please do not post in any threads that are discussing specific cables or asking for help with cables, and limit your participation to threads where the OP intends to debate about cables. Posts which are argumentative, offensive, or break our rules may be deleted. Repeat offenders will be banned from posting in this forum.



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Interesting Article
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:42 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 11:36 am
Posts: 43
Location: Mississauga, ON, CA
https://www.dagogo.com/audio-blast-schr ... placement/

I just ordered 4 AudioQuest splitters, gonna try this out between my DAC and preamp. Will post my observations using 2 sets of Teo Audio Kronons as well as 2 sets of Solfeggios.
Has anyone else tried this?

Best Regards
Igor


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Interesting Article
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:04 am
Posts: 406
Location: Brampton, ON, CA
Ouch wouldn't use this technique with my phono to phono pre. Talk about a whole lot capacitance.

_________________
ImageImageImage


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Interesting Article
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:17 am
Posts: 14796
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
While I have no doubt the added cable would make a difference, I have to question whether the added connections won't compromise any potential benefits.

_________________
To a hammer, everything looks like a nail


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Interesting Article
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 11:36 am
Posts: 43
Location: Mississauga, ON, CA
Here is a link to the AudioQuest splitters used for this cable "trick".....maybe there are better splitters available, but I think these get the job done.

https://www.crutchfield.ca/p_703M22FRHD ... ug=1002310

Best Regards
Igor


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Interesting Article
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:32 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:07 am
Posts: 267
Location: Repentigny, QC, CA
+1
Yes, interesting - and thanks for posting.

I am not going to try it though; ignorant me, happy with my sound!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Interesting Article
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:25 pm
Posts: 862
Location: Hamilton, ON, CA
As ripblade commented, each of those splitters will undoubtedly affect capacitance, potentially the db level of the signal. In tuners, this is a no no - adding connections to signal cable (i.e antenna wire); you can literally see a change in signal on meters of a magnum dynalab as you add splitters.

When I tried this (similarily) to split off a cd player to two amps, a auditable drop in sound. I dont think two wires will "add" anything with extra connections to bind two cables..,now - connect them via a hard wire and solder, perhaps.

Good luck.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Interesting Article
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:40 am 
Offline
Dealer/Sponsor

Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:33 am
Posts: 1838
Location: Kingston, ON, CA
JGP wrote:
As ripblade commented, each of those splitters will undoubtedly affect capacitance, potentially the db level of the signal. In tuners, this is a no no - adding connections to signal cable (i.e antenna wire); you can literally see a change in signal on meters of a magnum dynalab as you add splitters.

When I tried this (similarly) to split off a cd player to two amps, a audible drop in sound. I don't think two wires will "add" anything with extra connections to bind two cables..,now - connect them via a hard wire and solder, perhaps.

Good luck.



Quote:
A partial explanation of what you are looking for:
We (the world) went to fiber optic as the ’carrier’ so to speak, is capable of much higher levels of signal carrying than ’wire’..... Multiplexing, and so on.

In glass fiber, it is still a metal, but it is an amorphous metal.... and the signal applied is slightly different, even though it is considered technically the same. Both electromagnetic, in this case, light.... not ’electricity’.

In the case of the liquid metal, we’ve stepped beyond the amorphous aspect, to full liquid. We are apparently, at the least, well beyond the signal carrying capacity of solidus ’wire’, thus we can (in a proper design), apparently... easily achieve GHz ranges in signal transmission.

With commensurate levels of potential multiplexing (akin to the optical scenario), with low to no interference issues. Thus those rich harmonics of the signal, all in proper context. Without the falsified emphasis in them (distortion/phase smear), which wire will -- and does have.

Hence the impression of some, "darker, but incredibly rich".


and...

Quote:
Yes, some have some small experience...most have no experience in this.

Wire can have reflections and potential resonances (ground, etc), careful when doing this with wire....., which is why it has been avoided for the past 30-40 years in audio (the audiophile 'high end' years of audio systems) and is considered a no-no across the entire electronic spectrum of systems coupling.

amorphous.. notably less likely to have issue...(amorphous wire is a new thing)

Liquid metal alloy...less likely again than amorphous. (an even newer thing)

(culled from experience at the multi billion dollar ’transmission line concerned’ major telecommunications company ---level of testing)


To add, when our cables were tested in the lab at TI, if the cable in situ..was made of wire, it should have had a capacitance of about 20-40pf/ft. Big thick cable, heavy termination, lots of heat shrink, layers to the body, and so on.

It measured, in the traditional way of measuring actual capacitance, via decay curve and time, and then calculating..to have the same capacitance aspects as a 6 inch piece of 28g occ wire, suspended in air. Not per foot of our cable but the entire 48" terminated assembly as compared to the single 6" run of 28g occ.

You can take a LCR meter and test it and you'll get regular seeming numbers, that tend to wander a bit, compared to that of wire. The LCR measuring hardware is programmed to look for specific signals in it's test procedure according to standard formulas. Formulas all designed and derived around standards that were created in testing wire. At that point one could come back and say I'm fibber Mcgee, and full of it.

Look deeper, as the the guy at TI with the IQ of 196 did, at the TI labs.

wire ...is not amorphous wire... which is in turn not a liquid metal alloy.

the point is how does all of this sound? Is it a good thing or a bad thing, in that context.

The warning exists about not trying it in the pre to power position as the impedance is all over the place due to the output of the preamp being modulated via volume level changes, and that the amplifier is an open ended gain system/amplifier.

Another aspect is, if one wanted to pour gasoline or C4 on to the fire of the argument in 'entirely correct engineering considerations' vs the 'entirely correct human act of listing to audio equipment and making decisions via said listening'...then... this doubled up cable method...would certainly do it.

I'm heavily invested into the use of both engineering, and listening, but tied to a balanced and as complete as possible logic set that encompasses both -as the data sets they are. Not everyone does that as properly as might be, as this gets into the 'all is theory' end of things in the underlying physics pool--and leaves behind the engineering end of the pool where 'all is fact and dogmatic'...rules, laws and so on.

It's that line I like to throw out there, as it is a goodie and can easily be remembered for the logic aid it can be: "the more difficult the problem to solve, the more fundamental the error in the formulation of the question". (ie, question and answer can only ever equal each other, so, does one even know what they are asking?) (engineering is application - science is logic - the two are not the same)

This switch-over to theory...happens as soon as one invokes the science of investigation. If actual science (not engineering) was not handled this way, all of the advance you see before you from the Renaissance and up until now, would probably not have happened. It's the fundamental difference between exploring new things (the theories of science) vs building items and hardware from known parameters (textbooks, laws, formulas and dogma thus written-- ie, engineering).

Thus one has to tread carefully around lines of thought that are called 'engineering science' or 'the science of engineering'. In the true context of what separates science from engineering, they are seen to be oxymoronic and should rather to be addressed as the problematic statements they are.

_________________
(Ken Hotte, of) Teo Audio


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Interesting Article
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:52 pm 
Offline
Dealer/Sponsor

Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:33 am
Posts: 1838
Location: Kingston, ON, CA
further:

https://www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable

Dr. Malcom Hawskford's article on transmission lines and why they matter in the world of audio. Why cable Geometry, dielectrics, quality and so on, why that all matters at audio frequencies.

From the article:

Quote:
If we assume that the two conductors of the coaxial cable are ideal (where σ approaches infinity), then all the electromagnetic energy flows through the dielectric (insulator) because the electric field within the conductors must be zero. The E-Bar field does not penetrate the conductors, the skin depth is zero (check back to the expression for δ), and the conductors act as perfect reflectors (that's why a mirror is coated with a good conductor). In this ideal case, there is only a surface current on each conductor to match the boundary condition for the tangential magnetic field H-Bar at the dielectric/conductor interface (see Skilling [2]). You should visualize a wave traveling in an axial direction within the dielectric and being guided by the conductors, where the electric and magnetic fields are both at right angles to each other and to the direction of propagation along the axis of the cable.

However, this perfect example is unrealistic. All practical conducting materials have a finite conductivity σ. They must inevitably exhibit an energy loss because, at the molecular level, collisions convert electrical energy into heat.

As the wave propagates through the dielectric, a study of the boundary condition reveals that the radial electric field E-Bar is not quite at 90° to the conductor surface. This is a direct consequence of the finite conductivity producing a longitudinal component, E-Barσ, which is the voltage drop (in V/m) along the wire. The wave no longer takes the shortest path through the dielectric surrounding the conductor, but appears to travel more slowly at the conductor surface (rather in the way flowing water close to a river bank gives a curved velocity profile).

At each dielectric-to-conductor interface, a refracted field results within the conductor (the longitudinal E-Barσ field) which proceeds to propagate radially at virtual right angles to the axis of the cable into the interior of the conductor. This field we shall call the "loss field." Consequently, the majority of the electromagnetic energy propagates in a near-axial direction within the dielectric, but a much-reduced loss field propagates almost radially into each conductor.


Note this thing about surface refraction. Likened to that of optics and light.

In the liquid metal alloy the surface is ...well..not really there.

It's everywhere. It's intra-molecular. Sort of. A bit of each. Dynamic. According to load dynamics.

The measurements you get will be tied to how you measure. Which is wholly unlike all other electrical mediums. The Liquid metal alloy is easily shown to be fundamentally different than all other common and known electrical transfer mediums.

_________________
(Ken Hotte, of) Teo Audio


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Interesting Article
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 11:36 am
Posts: 43
Location: Mississauga, ON, CA
Well the AudioQuest female plugs were too tight for the WBT rca's on my Kronons so they are going back tomorrow. I will order Vampire Y-splitters cryo parts from Take5.
So my testing is delayed somewhat. Funny Crutchfield.ca delivered in record time, got the splitters today,Sunday.Too bad the QC was less than stellar!

Best Regards
Igor


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Interesting Article
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:42 am 
Offline
Dealer/Sponsor

Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:33 am
Posts: 1838
Location: Kingston, ON, CA
Nordost Odin AC power cable Teardown (not by me) from the net:

Image

Paralleling transmission lines is not unique.....

_________________
(Ken Hotte, of) Teo Audio


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Interesting Article
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:07 am
Posts: 820
Location: London, ON, CA
Creating an RCA (or XLR) cable with double the runs, soldered into the same plug (providing it would fit) should have the same effect? Don't several manufacturers already to this (thinking Kimber Kable)?

If Kimber Hero has 2 wires per pole, it is already double what you might find in a simpler cable? Then to double the Hero interconnect would give you 4 wires per pole.

If the 2 Hero interconnects were superior to one, why couldn't you just solder all of the wires into the same RCA plug?

I'm kinda lost in how to sort or quantify this information ... years ago I made and sold silver cables on this site (some of you may remember). I got many good reviews ... even in a printed audio magazine. The topology I used was to use several wires (either in parallel or braided). They sounded good! But I wasn't doing anything others weren't already doing.

So, for this system to work, are 2 cable runs necessary, or just double the wires per cable??? Confused.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Interesting Article
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:07 am
Posts: 267
Location: Repentigny, QC, CA
Quote:
So, for this system to work, are 2 cable runs necessary, or just double the wires per cable??? Confused.


Reckon you are right. The OP says that mfctrs do/ did offer large gauge/ bore i-c wires; asked why not more do it. Must have same effect if I have read the techie blurb correctly?!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Interesting Article
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:45 pm 
Offline
Dealer/Sponsor

Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:33 am
Posts: 1838
Location: Kingston, ON, CA
IT's about the complete transmission line as pairs, not just the separate lines. It's a big difference, impedance wise. The field aspects are set up, to a large degree, between the signal line and the ground or shield run.

If you look at the Nordost cutaway, you see all those separate 'transmission lines' Signal and shield/ground, many parallel runs.

In the case of using the splitters, similar can be made to happen, with various effects and various potential problems. It's a 'try it and see' thing.

But, to generally avoid using it in a pre-to power position, as you might have a problem. A transmission line expert thinks no big deal and no real potential for problems, but we're playing it safe and recommending against it..

_________________
(Ken Hotte, of) Teo Audio


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Interesting Article
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 11:36 am
Posts: 43
Location: Mississauga, ON, CA
My first experiment was a resounding success! As you probably know I had recently upgraded to 2-pairs of Solfeggio cables and the sound was stunning to say the least. For the test I used a Splash set of cables between my preamp and amps, and doubled up between my NOS DAC and preamp using 2-pairs of Kronons and the Vampire splitters from Take Five.
Using my "Go-To" cd's I was totally amazed at the transformation. Not only was the music more 3D but was more articulate from bottom to top with the most notable improvement with midrange which was so sweet. I will later try this with doubling up on the Solfeggios and report back. Over and out.

Best Regards
Igor


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Interesting Article
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 11:36 am
Posts: 43
Location: Mississauga, ON, CA
Second experiment I did using Solfeggio cables instead of the Kronons. Results were more of the same only better! So this config is going to stay put and I will have to order
another Solfeggio pair to replace the Splash between the preamp and amps.
I am pleased with both results, better than anticipated.

Best Regards
Igor


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group