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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:52 pm 
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I like the ADC cart and would like to put it on my Dual TT, would it be a good fit?
I'd also like to take a Ortofon OM 10 cart and put it on my Technics SL 23 TT, would this work?
I'm planning on selling the Technics.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:18 am 
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The adc xlm/iii is very high compliance and requires a low mass tonearm for best fit. The Dual you have should fit the bill nicely as if I’m not mistaken I believe it’s a ULM tonearm

The ortofon on the technics is fine too. Especially if you're just gonna flip it

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:44 am 
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Hi,

Jelloalien wrote: 'The adc xlm/iii is very high compliance and requires a low mass tonearm for best fit. '

He's dead right. When the XLM was released it's compliance was so high that a lot of arms, even when adjusted correctly for down force, would just crush the stylus down into the stylus housing - mass and inertial effects. So, after you mount it, watch it carefully for several records (particularly anything with a warp) - the stylus should stay in the same position relative to the housing, as it is in the lead in groove, throughout the record - if it seems to be getting squashed, then the mass of the arm is too much for it. Good luck.

Cheers,
David Neice

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:00 am 
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All good points. ADC and OM10 will work on the Dual.

I bought my Dual 505-2 and 515 new with the Dual version of the OM10 as standard. The OM10 will work on the 1200 but make sure it has the weight in the headshell and set the tracking force in the middle of the recommended range of around 1.5g.

IME, the 2M series Ortofon are better fit for the 1200 than the OM series.

One last thing is that if these cartridges are 30 years old, they might be getting to the end of their useful lives in terms of the cantilever. A number of my OM cantilevers have failed at the 20-30 year mark. Mind you they were all well used.

I have been using OM series for more than 30 years and it remains one of my favourite cartridge series because it is ideal for classical music. The OM20 is the best overall sounding (OM30 and 40 are great but need a better arm).


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:08 am 
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Jelloalien wrote:
The adc xlm/iii is very high compliance and requires a low mass tonearm for best fit. The Dual you have should fit the bill nicely as if I’m not mistaken I believe it’s a ULM tonearm

The ortofon on the technics is fine too. Especially if you're just gonna flip it


Thanks for the info, yes the Dual is has an ULM tonearm.

-- 03 Jun 2018 14:09 --

buybye88 wrote:
Hi,

Jelloalien wrote: 'The adc xlm/iii is very high compliance and requires a low mass tonearm for best fit. '

He's dead right. When the XLM was released it's compliance was so high that a lot of arms, even when adjusted correctly for down force, would just crush the stylus down into the stylus housing - mass and inertial effects. So, after you mount it, watch it carefully for several records (particularly anything with a warp) - the stylus should stay in the same position relative to the housing, as it is in the lead in groove, throughout the record - if it seems to be getting squashed, then the mass of the arm is too much for it. Good luck.

Cheers,
David Neice

Tanks David, I'll keep a close eye on it once it is installed on the Dual.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:10 am 
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Hi,

Note to the OP.

Banerjba has weighed in - listen carefully. He knows more about MM cartridges than anyone else on CAM. The XLM stood for 'extremely low mass' and the VLM for 'very low mass'. The springy material that grips the shank of the stylus in the cantilever section may be tired - it ages, like us - and this is common is older MM cartridges and also depends on previous use. You just have to try it and see. The OM series (!0 and 20) are far more robust and were fitted as OEM cartridges on thousands of Duals. No problem there at all.

ADC tried to fix the super compliance issue by bringing out a TT with a low mass arm. It was a carbon fibre arm, I think. I had one as a back-up TT and eventually traded it on to Audio Oasis. I have seen the occasional stand alone TT fitted with one of those ADC arms, which would have been moved over because they never sold them as a separate item. But that's another way to go if you really want to run a vintage ADC.

Cheers,
David Neice

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:13 am 
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banerjba wrote:
All good points. ADC and OM10 will work on the Dual.

I bought my Dual 505-2 and 515 new with the Dual version of the OM10 as standard. The OM10 will work on the 1200 but make sure it has the weight in the headshell and set the tracking force in the middle of the recommended range of around 1.5g.

IME, the 2M series Ortofon are better fit for the 1200 than the OM series.

One last thing is that if these cartridges are 30 years old, they might be getting to the end of their useful lives in terms of the cantilever. A number of my OM cantilevers have failed at the 20-30 year mark. Mind you they were all well used.

I have been using OM series for more than 30 years and it remains one of my favourite cartridge series because it is ideal for classical music. The OM20 is the best overall sounding (OM30 and 40 are great but need a better arm).

Thanks for the info the Technics is an SL-23 rather than a 1200, although I do have a SL-1200Mk2, I'm putting the Ortofon OM 10 cart on the SL-23.

-- 03 Jun 2018 14:16 --

buybye88 wrote:
Hi,

Note to the OP.

Banerjba has weighed in - listen carefully. He knows more about MM cartridges than anyone else on CAM. The XLM stood for 'extremely low mass' and the VLM for 'very low mass'. The springy material that grips the shank of the stylus in the cantilever section may be tired - it ages, like us - and this is common is older MM cartridges and also depends on previous use. You just have to try it and see. The OM series (!0 and 20) are far more robust and were fitted as OEM cartridges on thousands of Duals. No problem there at all.

ADC tried to fix the super compliance issue by bringing out a TT with a low mass arm. It was a carbon fibre arm, I think. I had one as a back-up TT and eventually traded it on to Audio Oasis. I have seen the occasional stand alone TT fitted with one of those ADC arms, which would have been moved over because they never sold them as a separate item. But that's another way to go if you really want to run a vintage ADC.

Cheers,
David Neice

Have to go to work, I'll comment when I get home.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:57 am 
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All Dual models prior to 505 506 ULM series had high mass arms. I had a 504 and it had a high mass arm but it was still a good arm for the money.

The cs-503 dates from the early 90s so is post ULM and has a low mass tonearm so you should be good to go.

here is a link https://www.vinylengine.com/library/dual/cs-503.shtml

The issue with a high compliance cartridge in a high mass arms is that the combined resonance point of the combination is moved into the warp frequency or other Ultra Low frequency range TT disturbances which will excite the resonance and produce distortion. The stylus cantilever won't get 'crushed'.

I used an ADC XLM-111 on a Technics SL1700 which has a higher mass arm and the combination worked quite well and sounded wonderful for the most part.

I think after market stylus replacements for the ADC are still available though ADC is long gone.


Last edited by RalphH on Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:53 am 
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buybye88 wrote:
Hi,

Note to the OP.

Banerjba has weighed in - listen carefully. He knows more about MM cartridges than anyone else on CAM.


Thanks David. Cheque's in the mail :wink:

Lot of knowledge on MMs here on CAM including Ripblade, OBI etc. but I am the resident budget audiophile. Except a few forays into higher end stuff I use inexpensive equipment but play a lot of records. I am also likely one of the very few people who prefers a good MM or MI (with replaceable stylus) over MC.

Part of it is because I play a lot of records but I also have poorer eyesight now and can no longer change my own cartridges as easily as even 10 years ago.

Personally, I would avoid the ADC due to its age and that they are no longer manufactured. They were decent sounding back in the day but we have so many choices now.

On the Dual, if you want a real treat, look for a Nagaoka cartridge. MP100 or MP110 That was a killer combo although not always the obvious one. AT95e works as well.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:33 pm 
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Hi,

RalphH wrote: 'The stylus cantilever won't get 'crushed'.'

Hm. Try this. Put an XLM in an AR-XA TT arm (similar vintage), set the tracking force to 1 gram, and watch it get crushed.

Cheers,
David Neice

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:48 pm 
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banerjba wrote:
buybye88 wrote:
Hi,

Note to the OP.

Banerjba has weighed in - listen carefully. He knows more about MM cartridges than anyone else on CAM.


Thanks David. Cheque's in the mail :wink:

Lot of knowledge on MMs here on CAM including Ripblade, OBI etc. but I am the resident budget audiophile. Except a few forays into higher end stuff I use inexpensive equipment but play a lot of records. I am also likely one of the very few people who prefers a good MM or MI (with replaceable stylus) over MC.

Part of it is because I play a lot of records but I also have poorer eyesight now and can no longer change my own cartridges as easily as even 10 years ago.

Personally, I would avoid the ADC due to its age and that they are no longer manufactured. They were decent sounding back in the day but we have so many choices now.

On the Dual, if you want a real treat, look for a Nagaoka cartridge. MP100 or MP110 That was a killer combo although not always the obvious one. AT95e works as well.


I am open to new carts as long as they aren't bright sounding or fatiguing, as I have tinnitus in my left ear so I have to be careful. Which is why I like Shure carts for their warmer sound. Are the Ortofon carts and specifically the OM 10 known to be bright or more on the high end sounds wise? I read in a couple places that they were. The Nagaoka MP100 and AT95e are within my price range, I'd have the same question for them?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:58 pm 
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OM series from 3 to 10 are not bright but the 20 will provide more treble detail.

OM series is generally quite warm and fuzzy - OM5 is warm with good bass and quite cheap. OM10 is more refined, airy and provides a wider soundstage but sounds a bit bass shy versus the darker fuller sound of the OM5.

Ortofon now makes a dirt cheap cartridge called Omega, which from what I can tell, is basically the old OM3. I own one and let my son use it on the 1200.

Neither the Nagaoka nor AT95e are bright. If any of these cartridges sound bright in your system, there are problems elsewhere.

Great budget hifi products are about balance and errors of omission rather than frequency anomalies. All of these choices fit the bill in that regard.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:49 am 
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buybye88 wrote:
Hi,

RalphH wrote: 'The stylus cantilever won't get 'crushed'.'

Hm. Try this. Put an XLM in an AR-XA TT arm (similar vintage), set the tracking force to 1 gram, and watch it get crushed.

Cheers,
David Neice


what a nice suggestion - thank you. That's what the current thirst for vintage audio gets you :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:12 am 
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banerjba wrote:
OM series from 3 to 10 are not bright but the 20 will provide more treble detail.

OM series is generally quite warm and fuzzy - OM5 is warm with good bass and quite cheap. OM10 is more refined, airy and provides a wider soundstage but sounds a bit bass shy versus the darker fuller sound of the OM5.

Ortofon now makes a dirt cheap cartridge called Omega, which from what I can tell, is basically the old OM3. I own one and let my son use it on the 1200.

Neither the Nagaoka nor AT95e are bright. If any of these cartridges sound bright in your system, there are problems elsewhere.

Great budget hifi products are about balance and errors of omission rather than frequency anomalies. All of these choices fit the bill in that regard.

Thanks so much for the information.
Just like your opinion on the Ortofon OM 10 Super Phono Cartridge?
https://www.needledoctor.com/Ortofon-OM ... -Cartridge


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:35 am 
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Great choice - Super is much better sounding that the stock model.


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