Canuck Audio Mart Hifi and Audio ForumCanuck Audio Mart Hifi and Audio Forum
It is currently Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:05 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:50 am
Posts: 887
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
The Ortofon 2m Black cartridge with its cutting edge Nude Shibata line stylus is regarded by some audio buffs as the best moving magnet cartridge on the market.

But has anyone had the opportunity to compare an Ortofon 2m Black cartridge against perhaps a much more expensive moving coil cartridge in a blind listening test? I understand that conducting such a test would be difficult since turntables aren't plug-and-play devices and one turntable would have to be properly set up and balanced with the Ortofon 2m Black and the other identical turntable with the moving coil cartridge.

:?:

_________________
Timeless elegance!

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:23 pm 
Offline
Dealer/Sponsor

Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:33 am
Posts: 1499
Location: Kingston, ON, CA
A two headshell situation can help more than a bit. Once both are zeroed in on the same arm, then it's just setting the counterweight for each as you switch.

As fast as a cable swap test.

_________________
(Ken Hotte, of) Teo Audio


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:18 am
Posts: 6494
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
2M Black is a killer mm but very detailed. The Cadenza Red is the cheapest in the next line up in terms of LOMC is vastly more natural sounding.I have not heard the Quintet Black but that might be an interesting comparison.

I went with Quintet Blue instead of 2M Black - they were close in price a the time I bought mine as the Quintet is a bit more relaxed sounding while still being open.

In terms of high end MM, I prefer the Clearaudio or high end Audio Technica models. The Linn Exakt is another interesting choice with voicing closer to the 2M Black.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:03 am
Posts: 954
Location: Georgetown, ON, CA
Hepcat wrote:
The Ortofon 2m Black cartridge with its cutting edge Nude Shibata line stylus is regarded by some audio buffs as the best moving magnet cartridge on the market.

But has anyone had the opportunity to compare an Ortofon 2m Black cartridge against perhaps a much more expensive moving coil cartridge in a blind listening test? I understand that conducting such a test would be difficult since turntables aren't plug-and-play devices and one turntable would have to be properly set up and balanced with the Ortofon 2m Black and the other identical turntable with the moving coil cartridge.

:?:
Hi Hepcat, I own an Ortofon 2M Black and was very pleased and impressed with the sound of it the whole time I was using it. It's on my Linn LP12 with Ittok LVII tonearm and am using the solid state MM phono stage that is built in to my Triode Lab tube preamp. I have a GAS Sleeping Beauty LOMC cartridge mounted on my Thorens TD126 MkIII with SME M2-9 tonearm and I used the same phono stage, but with the addition of a Choir Audio SUT-H step up.

I found a post of my impression at the time, when I had purchased the SUT to try my MC cart. Here it is:

It's dead quiet, one of the things I was worrying about, well no worries here. I'm getting lots of detail and more bass, actually everything across the frequency range seems more pronounced, but in bit of a slightly laid back way, which may have more to do with the rest of my gear (the 2A3 tube amp and Klipsch Cornwall speakers).

I haven't played a lot of LP's with it yet, but the three I've listened to today have had an exciting, energetic feel to them, more dynamic.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:17 am
Posts: 14377
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
"Cutting edge"? Shibata is the first line profile stylus originating in the '70s. Since then it's been superceded by a number of other more advanced line profiles, including but limited to, the Stereohedron, Fritz Gyger, Paratrace, van den Hul, Microline and Microridge.

My preference is for the Microline and Microridge...my personal feeling is the Shibata is overrated and overpriced.
In Fremer's blind 9 cartridge survey, my top pick was the AT150ANV with its Microridge, second pick was the Ortofon Bronze with its Microline stylus.

Anyway comparing MM to MC involves more than just matching arm mass; cartridge loading weighs just as heavily. Difficult to draw comparisons, even if you ignore synergy. This was proved by the fact that the one MC in the survey scored well down the list despite being the most expensive cartridge by several factors.

https://www.analogplanet.com/content/ni ... le-results

_________________
To a hammer, everything looks like a nail


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:03 am
Posts: 95
Location: St. John's, NL, CA
I owned a 2m Black for a few years and it's a very good cartridge. I have never done a blind test but within a record side of listening to my first LOMC I knew I wouldn't go back. That was an entry level cart, Denon DL-301. It didn't track as well and probably wasn't as accurate as the Black but was so dynamic and lively I was hooked. Accuracy and refinement improved with a Denon DL -304 and for the past two years I've been running a Quintet Black. To my ears this one has it all. I know there are better cartridges out there but I don't know if the QB can be bettered at the price.

Go for an LOMC when you can, you won't need a blind test.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:59 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:50 am
Posts: 887
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
ripblade wrote:
"Cutting edge"? Shibata is the first line profile stylus originating in the '70s. Since then it's been superceded by a number of other more advanced line profiles, including but limited to, the Stereohedron, Fritz Gyger, Paratrace, van den Hul, Microline and Microridge.

My preference is for the Microline and Microridge...my personal feeling is the Shibata is overrated and overpriced.
In Fremer's blind 9 cartridge survey, my top pick was the AT150ANV with its Microridge, second pick was the Ortofon Bronze with its Microline stylus.


Interesting! So you would pick the less expensive Ortofon Bronze over the more expensive Ortofon Black I take it.

ripblade wrote:
Anyway comparing MM to MC involves more than just matching arm mass; cartridge loading weighs just as heavily. Difficult to draw comparisons, even if you ignore synergy. This was proved by the fact that the one MC in the survey scored well down the list despite being the most expensive cartridge by several factors.


Would you not therefore conclude that the more expensive MC cartridge was overrated by previous reviewers?

:?:

gmv65 wrote:
Go for an LOMC when you can, you won't need a blind test.


But the purpose of blind tests is precisely to avoid been swayed by what you've been told but to instead rely on what you hear!

:?

_________________
Timeless elegance!

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:59 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:16 am
Posts: 738
Location: Surrey, BC, CA
There is also the issue of the phono stage, even if the stage used can accommodate both types of cartridges properly it unlikely they do so equally.
Most people with "much more expensive' moving coil cartridges are mating them to expensive arms and hooking them up to expensive phono stages.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:17 am
Posts: 14377
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Hepcat wrote:
Interesting! So you would pick the less expensive Ortofon Bronze over the more expensive Ortofon Black I take it.
It's not that I would....I did...without knowing till the provenance of the files was revealed some time later. BTW, I RMS normalized all the files in Izotope Rx before evaluating them, so while it's possible that some of the differences were related to other factors, volume wasn't one of them.

Hepcat wrote:
Would you not therefore conclude that the more expensive MC cartridge was overrated by previous reviewers?
It's possible, but Fremer himself believes that synergy was the issue. I can't argue with him. BTW, the MC in question was Ortofon's TOTL "Anna", with their "Replicant" stylus....probably another Microline variant.

Hepcat wrote:
But the purpose of blind tests is precisely to avoid been swayed by what you've been told but to instead rely on what you hear!
Indeed. You have to listen for yourself. What I prefer may not necessarily be what you prefer. Overall, however, once you get beyond a certain price point, the choices available become exclusively LOMC.

FWIW.

_________________
To a hammer, everything looks like a nail


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:52 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:50 am
Posts: 887
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
ripblade wrote:
In Fremer's blind 9 cartridge survey, my top pick was the AT150ANV with its Microridge, second pick was the Ortofon Bronze with its Microline stylus.

This was proved by the fact that the one MC in the survey scored well down the list despite being the most expensive cartridge by several factors.

https://www.analogplanet.com/content/ni ... le-results


Have the results of Fremer's survey been given yet?

:?:

_________________
Timeless elegance!

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:17 am
Posts: 14377
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
https://www.analogplanet.com/content/ni ... ng-results

But before you skip to the cheat sheet you try the test yourself. Isn't that what this thread is about?

_________________
To a hammer, everything looks like a nail


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 2:33 pm
Posts: 3174
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
I abandoned the 2M Black in favour of a late 1970s Grace F9 with a replacement stylus assembly from SoundSmith. The Grace with new stylus has detail comparable to the 2M Black, but without the harshness; also slightly more holographic spatial presentation and superior dynamic "slam".

I did go on to compare the Grace/SoundSmith hybrid against a Benz Micro MC. Don't recall the model name, but it retailed for US$3K.

Let's just say I was greatly relieved when I found a buyer in the US for the Benz Micro.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:18 pm
Posts: 596
Location: Thornhill, ON, CA
Reasonable to say the 2M Black has one of the better/best styli on a MM. However there still exists the moving mass and the limitation on the transducer response. Peoples actual observation, and whether it's consistent with the physics are two different things. Aside from the physical mechanism that operates the transducer and all the other variables there is always the voicing.

For this we need your ears, people.

To me is stands to reason a Quintet Black should outperform a 2M Black.

??

_________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------'
No matter how much water you can soak up with a sponge, you can always break a window with a hammer!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:23 pm
Posts: 1091
Location: Victoria, BC, CA
I too recently sold a 2M Black, for me in favor of a Linn Adikt. Still detailed but a little less harsh and a little less dust noise.
The 2M Black took me a couple of hours to set up nicely. You really have to get it right.
I still listen to a DL103R more than either though.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:18 pm
Posts: 596
Location: Thornhill, ON, CA
Where does a good MC justify the price difference plus the non user replaceable stylus and proper preamplification?

I jumped to an Ortofon MC10S 30 years ago and never re-visited MM for the few years I used the Ortofon. It sounded better than the mediocre MM that preceded it.

Now an entry level Dynavector and pretty satisfied with the neutral sound. Maybe up the DV chain if price isn't a huge deterrent later.

_________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------'
No matter how much water you can soak up with a sponge, you can always break a window with a hammer!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Frank50 and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group