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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:30 am 
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Hi All,
A couple of times now I have wanted to increase my maximum bid on an auction item. When I am the high bidder on something, unless I increase my bid (essentially bidding against myself) I can't increase my maximum.
Anyone else had this problem?
Mods have any solution?
Thanks


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:34 am 
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Yeah it would be handy if you can't be around near the end.

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Collecting vintage tube Pilot (Pilotone) HiFi gear.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:42 am 
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Noticed the same thing you have to bid against yourself instead of just being able to increse the max bId. I’ve also noticed that if you hold the highest bid on the auction once you reach your max bid it switches over to the other person at you max bid and not one above.

for example if you are the current highest bidder at $1,500 (and your max.is $2,000) you will get a notification that you have been outbid when the auction reaches $2,000. At $2,000 you should still be the highest bidder and should not be outbid until it goes above $2000. It should show the other bid above your $2,000. If the auction were to close you would lose even though it only reached your maximum bid. That has happened twice to me.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:42 pm 
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We'll try to see about allowing max bids to be updated without updating your current bid.

GWN wrote:
I’ve also noticed that if you hold the highest bid on the auction once you reach your max bid it switches over to the other person at you max bid and not one above.

for example if you are the current highest bidder at $1,500 (and your max.is $2,000) you will get a notification that you have been outbid when the auction reaches $2,000. At $2,000 you should still be the highest bidder and should not be outbid until it goes above $2000. It should show the other bid above your $2,000. If the auction were to close you would lose even though it only reached your maximum bid. That has happened twice to me.


This might be the result of expected but non-obvious design behaviour of auction bidding and our decision to force auto bids to follow the same rules as real bidding. Here's an example how the situation can happen, if you're describing something different please give exact details (eg exact bid amounts and step by step description) and we'll see if there's any bug:

  1. The auto bidding doesn't always reach your max bid, it only bids up to your max bid as long as that max bid is sufficiently above the minimum bid required to beat the other highest bid.
  2. As the price of the auction increases, the minimum amount you must beat the last bid also increases, and because the auto bidder literally bids only by the minimum necessary to beat someone, it's possible that the bids reach a state where you lose even if you haven't reached your max.
  3. This means if you put a max bid of $2000, and someone bids $1999, your max bid is too low to beat that person's $1999 bid and his bid will be considered the highest current bid.
  4. This situation can also happen if you put a max bid of $2000 and someone else also puts a max bid of $2000, the auto bidder will keep bidding up until one of the two bidders cannot be beat. Ultimately the final price will be something at or slightly below $2000.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:55 pm 
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3 and 4 make no sense to me. In both cases the autobidder should look for bids that are above the $2000 mark (my max). So if the new person has bid a range of 2000 to 3,000 then the auto bidder should select the next highest bid that meets the critertia (2001, 2010 etc.). If the bid is exactly $2000 it should still belong to original bidder.

My max bid was $2,000 and my bidding history shows that the auto-bidder stopped at $1944.


Last edited by GWN on Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:01 pm 
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GWN wrote:
3 and 4 make no sense to me. In both cases the autobidder should look for bids that are above the $2000 mark (my max). So if the new person has bid a range of 2000 to 3,000 then the auto bidder should select the next highest bid that meets the critertia (2001, 2010 etc.). If the bid is exactly $2000 it show still belong to original bidder.

My max bid was $2,000 and my bidding history shows that the auto-bidder stopped at $1944.


Hi GWN, can you link to the auction in question so I can see it's bid history?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:13 pm 
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Here you go.

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/ ... in-canada/


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:17 pm 
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this actually happened to me also, except it was 150$ instead of 2000$, i got "outbid" at 150 but i did in fact put my max bid to be at 150


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:10 pm 
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GWN wrote:


In that above auction the auto bidder made several bids on behalf of yourself and Bidder 7. Your last auto bid was $1982, which is when Bidder 7 beat you at $2000. So I think there is no bug here, the auto bidder did it's best to win on your behalf but the other bidder was the last to beat you at $2000.



f18inch wrote:
this actually happened to me also, except it was 150$ instead of 2000$, i got "outbid" at 150 but i did in fact put my max bid to be at 150


Could you link to the auction in question? If you had a max bid at $150 then someone can definitely out bid you by putting a bid at or above $150.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:33 pm 
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admin wrote:
GWN wrote:


In that above auction the auto bidder made several bids on behalf of yourself and Bidder 7. Your last auto bid was $1982, which is when Bidder 7 beat you at $2000. So I think there is no bug here, the auto bidder did it's best to win on your behalf but the other bidder was the last to beat you at $2000.



f18inch wrote:
this actually happened to me also, except it was 150$ instead of 2000$, i got "outbid" at 150 but i did in fact put my max bid to be at 150


Could you link to the auction in question? If you had a max bid at $150 then someone can definitely out bid you by putting a bid at or above $150.


I was under the impression that if im willing to go to 150, then whoever that outbid me should be able to do so starting at 151! Otherwise its almost seems like the last person that calls 150 would technically outbid the previous person that also called 150...
Anyways im avoiding that max bid option for now, manually bidding is much more concrete and "true".

No biggie though, still love CAM :mrgreen:

-- 27 Mar 2018 04:33 --

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/ ... usic-6sn7/


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:36 am 
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admin wrote:
GWN wrote:


In that above auction the auto bidder made several bids on behalf of yourself and Bidder 7. Your last auto bid was $1982, which is when Bidder 7 beat you at $2000. So I think there is no bug here, the auto bidder did it's best to win on your behalf but the other bidder was the last to beat you at $2000.



f18inch wrote:
this actually happened to me also, except it was 150$ instead of 2000$, i got "outbid" at 150 but i did in fact put my max bid to be at 150


Could you link to the auction in question? If you had a max bid at $150 then someone can definitely out bid you by putting a bid at or above $150.


Admin: the $1944 number I gave you shows up when I go into my account and select “My Bid History” under the “My Ads” menu at the top of page. My last bid should have been $2,000 not $1982 as you say. How is bidder 7’s $2,000 bid better my original $2,000 bid

f18inch: That was my point exactly. My original bid of $2,000 should take precedence over a new bid of $2,000. Like you I will avoid the auto-bidder from now on.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:57 pm 
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Increasing Max bids: We've made a tweak now so that the current highest bidder can increase their max bid without bidding against themselves, thanks for raising this issue.

User bid history bug: GWN - your Bid history page was bugged and incorrectly showing $1944, if you check again now it will correctly show $1982 as your highest bid. You can also see the bid action by going to the auction, and clicking the Bids link, then click "Show automatic bids". I think in your auction fits something like Scenario 3.

Sorry for the long post below. I'm open to discussing how to improve auto bidding, but it does involve explaining how it works right now so we can discuss the auto bidding framework.

I should also add that the auto-bidder works very well, but isn't perfect. We certainly welcome ways to improve our systems, but currently it's still a pretty good system that works under a specific set of rules and can help you try to win an auction without immediately bidding up an item, but you should definitely remain engaged and aware of an auction. This risk of losing an auction by just a few dollars is part of what makes auctions fun and surprising, and the auto bid system doesn't necessarily take away that risk completely.

Auto bidding unexpected results

GWN and f18inch: I understand the auto bidding may be confusing because the actual auto bid engine simulates actual bidding. I think this comes down to mechanics of what the autobidder does, and I understand right now it may not behave as you expect, but it does behave in a logical manner that is limited by some design decisions. We tried to make the best decisions we could. We spent many hours modeling and gaming how auctions would play out, and we decided on a set of rules for the auto bidder that I'll explain, but please skip to the end of this to see where I explore whether what you think it should do might work.

Here are the rules the auto bidder follows:

  1. The auto bidder always beats other bids by the minimum amount necessary
  2. The auto bidder can only bid if it can beat the minimum required bid (which is more than $1 for items in the multi hundred and multi thousand range, and gets higher as the price gets higher). At $2000 the minimum bid is around $20 higher than current bid.
  3. The auto bidder can only bid on your behalf when someone else beats it, it doesn't have advance knowledge a bid is coming in, and can't pre-empt someone else's bid (eg the auto bidder can't insert a bid before someone else's bid is inserted). This means the auto bidder doesn't know a bid is coming in until that bid is recorded by the auction, at which point it does #1 if it can meet rule #2.

Given the above rules the following scenarios can happen:

Scenario 1: Someone can beat your max bid if they bid exactly your max bid
Current bid: $100
Your max bid: $2000
Someone bids: $2000
Result: The $2000 bid comes in, and your auto bidder checks to see if it can beat the bid, it cannot so does nothing, and the new bidder is the current winner at $2000.

I believe Scenario 1 is the one that you have the biggest problem with, please look lower in my post for a discussion of why this happens and what we can (or can't) do about it.


Scenario 2: Someone can bid below your max bid and still beat it if the next minimum bid for your autobidder is above your max bid
Current bid: $1900
Your max bid: $2000
Someone bidder bids: $1985
Result: The $1985 bid comes in, and your auto bidder checks to see if it can beat the bid. The next minimum bid is above $2000 so your auto bidder does nothing. This is no different than if you manually went to the auction and see a price of $1985 and try to bid $2000, you'd see an error that tells you to bid around $2003.

Scenario 3: Someone bids with a max bid exactly equal to yours and can beat you
Current bid: $100
Your max bid: $2000
Someone bidder bids: $200 w/ $2000 max bid.
Result: This is very hard to predict, but who "wins" is entirely dependent on which is the last bid coming closest to $2000 that happens to be high enough that the next minimum bid amount is above the $2000 auto bid amount. So the result can be that either you or the other bidder ends up as the winner with $1990 as the highest bid.

How to simulate how the auto bidder works

I think the best way to think of the auto bidder is to think of it like a friend that you leave at the auction with the instructions to beat anyone up to and including your max bid amount. This friend cannot read minds and has no idea what anyone else will bid ahead of time. If you tell your friend to bid up to $2000 to beat anyone, and leave, then shortly afterwards another person stood up during the auction and says "I bid $2000", then your friend would not bid at all, because someone else has matched your max bid already and your friend will not spend more than you instructed.

Imagine that same auction above, where someone stood up and bid "$1000", your friend then bids $1010 to beat him , the other bidder bids again, and then your friend and that bidder will successively outbid each other until the bid goes to say $1985. The thing is, if your friend's opponent's last highest bid is $1985, your friend cannot bid $2000 because the minimum bid necessary might be $2005, so he can't bid any further.

Changing to always respect the max bid no matter what

Bidders might be expecting that the max bid should kick in no matter what.

In Scenario 1, you might expect that since you set a max bid of $2000, if someone bids $2000 you should be the one to get the bid at $2000, but there are several problems with this. One is that you are now pre-empting their bid with foreknowledge that would not exist if not because our system knows ahead of time what they are doing. The second and more important, is that you will question why your bid went from $100 to $2000 with no bids in between. It will appear as though you bid against yourself, and we'd have no record of anyone bidding to cause your auto bidder to go up to $2000. This also invites users to test or game bids to see if they can force your auto bids higher with less risk to themselves because they will have no obligation to buy as long as they can guess below your max bid. Say an item is worth $4000 and visitors see that there are many bidders up to $1000, they might suspect that a max bid is set, and they can start probing to force your bids higher, without any risk to themselves. You'd see successively higher bids as your auto bid keeps beating their phantom probes. This is why every bid that comes in is binding and recorded, and your auto bidder can only bid against these binding and recorded bids.

In Scenario 2, one way for us to reach the exact $2000 max bid is to allow the auto bidder to bid the exact max bid amount even if it doesn't beat the minimum bid requirements. We decided this was unfair: if a human can't do it, the auto bidder shouldn't be allowed to either, but I'm open to exploring this further if it gives more confidence to the auto bidder, and if most users are ok with the auto bidder being able to bid below what a human can bid themselves.

Scenario 3 can't be helped given how the auto bidding system works, and I think it would be hard (and confusing) to fix.

I'd be interested to know whether most users are OK with auto bidders bidding to reach the exact max bid amounts even if humans cannot make that exact bid. If the consensus is this is ok I think we could look into doing that. But I think Scenario 1 and Scenario 3 are unavoidable without adding other risks and confusion.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:29 pm 
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"...thanks for raising this issue."

You're welcome. I appreciate your work on this.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:39 pm 
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"I was under the impression that if im willing to go to 150, then whoever that outbid me should be able to do so starting at 151!"

That seems too logical.


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