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 Post subject: Sugden or Sima?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:41 am 
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Roughly the same price Sugden a25 or Sima pw3000.

Which one and why?

Thoughts?? Have owned neither...

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 Post subject: Re: Sugden or Sima?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:27 pm 
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Location: Bolton, ON, CA
I can't say anything about Sima products, nor have I heard a Sugden A25, but I do own Sugden separates -- C28 and P28. They are wonderful. Detailed, dynamic, full-sounding, neutral tonally, great pace and drive. Hard to describe how they differ from others, but they are very musical and fluid sounding. Highly underrated. Excellent build quality. OTOH, I have read that some models need frequent service due to the high heat that they produce, which apparently can affect the internals. Personally I haven't experienced this, but to be safe I would place them in a well-ventilated cabinet or rack.

Hope this helps. Post back what you decide on and why.

Cheers!


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 Post subject: Re: Sugden or Sima?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:40 pm 
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Given Sima's heritage will assume crisp and clinical...opposite of the Sugden.
Just something different to try...can't decide which

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 Post subject: Re: Sugden or Sima?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Well, I can't help you there :D . It's a matter of personal taste, really, isn't it? Personally, there are times when I like one or the other, depending on the music I'm listening to. Simple structures like acoustic guitar, solo voice, jazz trios, etc. can sound amazing on a detailed system that has great speed and clarity. OTOH, complex music like classical symphonic pieces or layered rock, for example, can be unlistenable on such a system. That's where a more fluid, smoother, but less clinical and detailed sound can really make the music sing.

Some perspective... :)


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 Post subject: Re: Sugden or Sima?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:13 pm 
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I haven't heard the Sima, but it's likely a very good integrated. If you are talking about the Sugden A25 on CAM now, that one used to be mine! It is a superb, classic British integrated with an outstanding phono stage. When I let that one go, I experienced the biggest case of seller's remorse I had ever experienced. Within a few weeks I had found an A28ll to replace it. I like my A28ll a lot, however the A25 is special in it's way. The top end is cleaner and more textured than the 28, and the low end has more authority. The mids of the A28 are more up front and prominent, whereas the A25 is a little more relaxed and set back somewhat. The 25 is quieter than my 28. The wee A25 drove my Celestion SL6s better than my 200 wpc high current Citation amplifier - I kid you not! It's a wonderful little integrated, and I should have left all alone. There is something magical with that mosfet design.


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 Post subject: Re: Sugden or Sima?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:53 pm 
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cyrus wrote:
I haven't heard the Sima, but it's likely a very good integrated. If you are talking about the Sugden A25 on CAM now, that one used to be mine! It is a superb, classic British integrated with an outstanding phono stage. When I let that one go, I experienced the biggest case of seller's remorse I had ever experienced. Within a few weeks I had found an A28ll to replace it. I like my A28ll a lot, however the A25 is special in it's way. The top end is cleaner and more textured than the 28, and the low end has more authority. The mids of the A28 are more up front and prominent, whereas the A25 is a little more relaxed and set back somewhat. The 25 is quieter than my 28. The wee A25 drove my Celestion SL6s better than my 200 wpc high current Citation amplifier - I kid you not! It's a wonderful little integrated, and I should have left all alone. There is something magical with that mosfet design.


Cyrus -- great description there. Esp. the mids of the 28 being more forward. That's exactly what I find with my C28/P28. I think much of it comes from the preamp section, as it was evident even when I had the C28 driving a Belles power amp (which is an outstanding combination, by the way).


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 Post subject: Re: Sugden or Sima?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:55 pm 
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Not on cam...
Leaning more towards sugden but a sima popped up locally.

Guess just looking for someone to comment on any potential negatives.... possible graininess, reliability, serviceability etc concerning either.

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 Post subject: Re: Sugden or Sima?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:31 pm 
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CdnViking wrote:
cyrus wrote:
I haven't heard the Sima, but it's likely a very good integrated. If you are talking about the Sugden A25 on CAM now, that one used to be mine! It is a superb, classic British integrated with an outstanding phono stage. When I let that one go, I experienced the biggest case of seller's remorse I had ever experienced. Within a few weeks I had found an A28ll to replace it. I like my A28ll a lot, however the A25 is special in it's way. The top end is cleaner and more textured than the 28, and the low end has more authority. The mids of the A28 are more up front and prominent, whereas the A25 is a little more relaxed and set back somewhat. The 25 is quieter than my 28. The wee A25 drove my Celestion SL6s better than my 200 wpc high current Citation amplifier - I kid you not! It's a wonderful little integrated, and I should have left all alone. There is something magical with that mosfet design.


Cyrus -- great description there. Esp. the mids of the 28 being more forward. That's exactly what I find with my C28/P28. I think much of it comes from the preamp section, as it was evident even when I had the C28 driving a Belles power amp (which is an outstanding combination, by the way).


Fantastic pairing, your C28/P28. Never let those go! I had the same pair 8 years ago in lovely condition, and let those go too in order to "upgrade" to the AU41 series separates. Should have been an upgrade, but sadly was not to my ears, just the opposite. Enter Musical Fidelity A3 integrated. I was seduced by the dual mono. No offence at all in regards to the Musical Fidelity, but it just didn't make music like the Sugden 28's did. I've been through a few amps since that time, and then made the decision to go back to Sugden, thus the A25. Once again I was seduced by vintage, and was to purchase a fully restored Paco tube amp from the late 50's. It was truly beautiful, but in the end, it was not to be (never had it in my possession). Alas, I seized upon the A28ll, and I am well pleased once again. A somewhat sad and sordid tale, but one with a happy ending fortunately. I have found that with Sugden amps, you just don't know what you had until it's gone.


Last edited by cyrus on Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sugden or Sima?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:11 am 
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Location: malagash, NS, CA
:D I once owned the Sima 3000 and it replaced a Nad 3020.I compared at home with the Misson Cyrus and a Rotel. I liked the Cyrus best to a point. The Cyrus was very "tidy", tight, neat smooth, and neatly detailed. One of my nephews helped me with the decision when I was playing vinyl. We played Pat Benatar on the tt and on the Cyrus she was good but on the Sima she came into the room. The Sima brought her voice forward with the energy she sang with. It just sang with her...Now I haven't heard the Sugden but I would supect it has the edge. It is a special class A design that UHF loves. If the Sudgen is in great shape go for it. You won't look back IMO. Cheers, and good luck :) .


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 Post subject: Re: Sugden or Sima?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:48 am 
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cyrus wrote:
Fantastic pairing, your C28/P28. Never let those go! I had the same pair 8 years ago in lovely condition, and let those go too in order to "upgrade" to the AU41 series separates. Should have been an upgrade, but sadly was not to my ears, just the opposite. Enter Musical Fidelity A3 integrated. I was seduced by the dual mono. No offence at all in regards to the Musical Fidelity, but it just didn't make music like the Sugden 28's did. I've been through a few amps since that time, and then made the decision to go back to Sugden, thus the A25. Once again I was seduced by vintage, and was to purchase a fully restored Paco tube amp from the late 50's. It was truly beautiful, but in the end, it was not to be (never had it in my possession). Alas, I seized upon the A28ll, and I am well pleased once again. A somewhat sad and sorted tale, but one with a happy ending fortunately. I have found that with Sugden amps, you just don't know what you had until it's gone.


Hi Cyrus -- sorry for the late reply, just saw your note. And no, I'll not be letting my Sugdens go...ever! They sound wonderful. I may actually get a little Sugden integrated for my daughter as part of her first audio system. She is graduating this year and will be setting up an apartment in the city. My gift to her is a proper sound system. Your comments about the A25 are very helpful. That will probably be at or near the top of my list. Do you prefer the A28 over the A25? Is the latter able to drive inefficient speakers, even with only 25wpc?


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 Post subject: Re: Sugden or Sima?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:12 am 
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Hi Viking, that's a tough one actually. They are both excellent integrated amplifiers. The A25 was the entry Sugden of the day, but certainly does not have an entry level sound to it. I suppose the acid test would be whether I would see off my A28ll in service now for the A25, and the answer would be no. Not necessarily because it is a lessor sounding piece, but because I am so accustomed now to the presentation of the A28, and it is synergizing with my speakers very well. I would say that the A28 has more of that real classic old school British presentation with the prominent mids. The A25 however, even though a lessor powered unit, seemed to have more grunt to it, a bit of a cleaner low and a very appealing and textured top end. When I decided to seek out a Sugden again (a few years after I sold my P28/C28 pairing), I was actually looking for a 28 series piece(s). The 25 came up, and I bought it. It was not what I was expecting (as in quite different in presentation to the 28's), but I was impressed and happy with it. My present day 28 integrated sounds very very similar to the separates, with slightly less transparency I would say with the one box format. To answer your question of the 25's ability to drive inefficient speakers, yes, the amp is competent in this regard. As mentioned prior, I had a Citation dual mono 200 WPC high current amplifier behind my Celestion SL6S at 84db/1m. The wee A25 with it's single power supply and 25 WPC drove those rather difficult Celestion in a much better way! Particularly surprising was the bass response and control. The Celestions are certainly known to require big power and current to open up, but the A25 just had some sort of magical fairy dust synergy going on there. So, perhaps it was just that, synergy, but in my experience yes, the 25 had no problems at all with inefficient speakers. I should mention that I enjoy listening in a fairly near field set up where I am about 5' from the front plane of the speakers, and I listen to low to moderate listening levels (turning it up on occasion presented no difficulties though). Of late I have paired my A28ll with newer Cambridge Audio Aero 2 speakers with the 2.25" radiator used for the mids/highs. These speakers work very well with the Sugden and are quite inexpensive. The radiators really respond nicely to that up front mid range of the Sugden. So, this may be a speaker to consider for your daughter to pair up with a Sugden (I bought mine at Ayreborne Audio here in BC for 50% off at $300 for the pair, open box units). What a great gift that you are planning to present to your daughter!


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 Post subject: Re: Sugden or Sima?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:12 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Sugden or Sima?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:19 am 
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Hi Cyrus -- great reply! Thanks so much for all the insight. Very helpful indeed. Seems like I couldn't go wrong with either the 25 or 28.

FYI, my daughter's Grampa (my father-in-law) has offered her a pair of his old KEF stand mount speakers. They are an unported design, and rather inefficient according to him, hence my question about the A25's ability to drive a speaker like that. No need to worry, clearly.

As for the rest of her system, I already have a turntable set aside for her -- an original Rega P3. Not sure on the arm yet - I have two to choose from, an RB300 with Goldring 1022, and an R200 with 2M Bronze. Both sound great.

So other than an amp, she just needs a good DAC and she'll be all set.

Thanks again for your insight. Much appreciated.

And apologies to the OP for any thread drift here :)


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 Post subject: Re: Sugden or Sima?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:24 am 
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No worries!

It's nice to see a tangent going in a positive direction rather than what usually happens.

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 Post subject: Re: Sugden or Sima?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:01 pm 
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BinkyTheCat wrote:
No worries!

It's nice to see a tangent going in a positive direction rather than what usually happens.


Yes, agreed. But one can't stop hoping that civility, courtesy and respect will rub off on others. :)

Let us know what you decide on. As you can see, there are a few Sugden fans that have come out of the woodwork here. :D As far as I know, Sugden has never made a mediocre product, so pretty hard to go wrong there. Once you hear one, you'll know why they have their fans.

Quick story, and then I'll stop punting Sugden to you...

A couple of months back, when our system had a Sony TA-E86B preamp in it, which was modded to be a passive device and had run that way for at least 15 years, I swapped in the Sugden C28 preamp just to see what it would sound like driving the Belles power amp. Well, about 5 minutes into the first album, my wife came up from the basement where she had been watching a hockey game, and asked "What did you do to the stereo?! It sounds so much better. I can hear it all the way downstairs." She heard the difference one floor down, around multiple corners and hallways, with HNIC turned up to a not-so-low volume (probably watching her Habs or Jets playing). That's how remarkable and unique the Sugden sound is. True story! :)

Hope you find something that works for you.

Cheers,
Svend


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