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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:25 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:09 pm
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Location: etobicoke, ON, CA
Hi,

I am new to this forum. I am an electrical engineer, who is supposed to know these things but last time I dealt with anything under 1000V was soe 25 years ago :) So, take me as a newbie hobbyst.

I recently purchased a CA 1010 through CAM. The unit overall seems to work fine, sound is good but has one minor issue. I am hoping someone can help me with my questions below:

1-When I switch on the unit, main relay picks up within seconds, and everything works. After a certain time, say about 30 seconds, another relay drops (or picks up - not sure) and output is gone (no sound, no hissing, meters show 0). After about 1 min or so, the relay which picked up (or dropped) reverses, and back to business. I observed that the main relay picks up at the start up and stays on during this event; so it is some other relay operating. I can hear the click. There is a relay on the function board, which seems to be what is operating (or not operating) temporarily. Any idea as to what might be the reason?

2-I see that right channel is tiny bit lower than the left channel. It is same when I reverse the channels by switch (reverse stereo). Any suggestions?

3-This one is more philosophical :) I think the caps are original. There is a tiny bit of degredation (bottoms are slightly leaking) at the base of electrolytic caps (not the power unit large caps, others on the main CB and function CB). Do you recommend these to be changed? According to a professional, it aint broke, why fix it? He said they would go for another 10 yrs :) Any suggestions? Would a possible failure cost me my speakers?

Thanks in advance for all your answers.

Gokhan


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:38 am 
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Location: Cranbrook, BC, CA
What "professional" would recommend not replacing leaky caps?
:shock:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:56 am 
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gold01ca wrote:
What "professional" would recommend not replacing leaky caps?
:shock:



Indeed!

As for relays...if speaker maybe clean/replace?
Is there excessive dc throwing the protection?
Many possibilities/issues

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:58 am 
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Location: Kingston, ON, CA
The capacitors are probably not leaking, it is probably glue that has turned dark brown and hardened. Originally it was an off white softer latex like blend.

But, there are going to be capacitors that are off spec, connections that are not perfect like wire wrap connections or solder junctions that have thermally or mechanically stressed themselves...and.. older transistors, specific ones, that are leaky, and possibly small signal diodes that are going off spec as well.

These are known issues with gear that is at the age of the CA-1010. besides the potential for the leaky small capacitors (out-gassing and then drying out) that have caused the bias and stability of the power amplifier section to be off spec..and thus the protection circuit kicks in..the amp is unloaded and undriven..then it goes back to spec on specific points the protection circuit monitors.....then the protection circuit does it's thing--allowing the circuit to be functional (output is allowed-relay clicks).......then it drifts back into being out of spec as it is 'loaded'..then the protection circuit does it's thing..and so on, repeat, repeat.

You are likely (very high odds) in the imminent danger zone with this amplifier. It should not be turned on again except in the presence of a technician who can stop it from really doing something damaging.

It could be many things, or at least a short list of things, some almost benign, some definitely not. Rest assured, it very very likely needs new capacitors and a thorough look at by a tech. Relay cleaning, solder join checking, small signal capacitors swapped in critical spots, the whole thing looked over in all potential ways it might be acting up..... and problems will be found, if it is all original. Problems that must be attended to.


Here is a CR-1000 being worked on by a Japanese tech that goes by the handle of Amp8, and is well known for his thorough documenting of his tech work. It illustrates what has to be done to make a top model Yamaha from the same period of parts and age....what has to be done to make sure it is alive for the future. The rebuild, is what it is. No free rides for older gear, that (free ride) is only in the imagination of those who don't know what electronics actually are. A list which sadly includes almost all potential buyers and thus a false price/value peak that will never go away..... for gear that needs work--immediately.

I'd have to research it but it looks like there may be a leaky transistor problem that came with age, on the transistors that Yamaha used, at that time, most likely...in almost everything. Looks like he pulled a bunch of Hitachi transistors, as you can see in his bin of pulled parts. If so, this would not be unique to Yamaha's entire line of that time period. It is very likely that every other Japanese audio company used those same sourced transistors at that time. the problem of such aging of the transistors in question might be spread across a thousand different pieces of gear from various companies across a 3-5-x year window. the 'if so' applies, one has to do the research to find if those specific transistors have a known aging issue.

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Last edited by Teo Audio on Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:28 am, edited 5 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:08 am 
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Location: cambridge, ON, CA
Hi and welcome to CAM. Your 1010 is a nice amp and there is lots of info available on the net about it. The amp is right in the timeline of having a service done to it including caps and relays. if you are correct in having seen leaking caps. its high time to decide to either repair , restore or just sell it and get something else. As to damaging your speakers. it is a possibility with a failure.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:55 am 
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Location: Markham, ON, CA
I am in violent agreement with the other respondents. It is time to have the unit properly inspected and aged parts replaced. In a recent marantz I had done for me, (1980 1550) it took 68 parts changed to bring it back to spec. Caps of this age are definitely beyond their prime. Most likely resistors are failing, the relays may themselves be suspect. Bottom line this should now be fully restored or sold as-is. You are risking a total failure if you continue to use it. At. All.

Sorry for the bad news; the good news is that this is a very nice-sounding, solid performer when restored. I prefer the sound from these older amps over many of the newer "affordable" alternatives. This amp is worthy of restoration.

Welcome to the CAM community and please ask if you have questions of anything audio; I have found the group incredibly helpful and nurturing. I rely on "the collective" with most of my used purchases and some other concerns I have identified as my audio journey continues.

Best, Tom


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:24 am 
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Like the other folks said... Recap your power supplies and your output capacitor if there is one. (I would replace all electrolytics and tantalum caps in any event)

Also check the speaker terminals with a DMM for DC volts (your speakers will also be complaining badly). A DC offset issue will cause the protection relay to kick in. If no DC is present when the relay first kicks in, your "de-thump" timing cap may need replacement as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:24 am 
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Location: Richmond Hill, ON, CA
This is a fine amplifier, and well worth having rebuilt. Caps, relays, and the power supply should be at least checked. There are some good technicians that are familiar with these.
Check hifiengine.com for a service manual.

Cheers,
Alec


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:30 am 
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Location: etobicoke, ON, CA
Thank you very much for all the comments, I really appreciate it. Replacing one or two components is one thing, but changing a whole lot of components, with retail prices is another :) This will bring the price of this amplifier to the price of its modern day equivalent, say Yamaha AS-2100 :( This makes me question my logic in purchasing it in the first place :?:

Even if I was able to replace them all by myself, adjustments of this amplifier requires a lot of specific test/measurement equipment.

OK then, let me change my question:

Does anyone know a place in Toronto area who could maybe perform this kind of reconditioning service? Or a member of this forum who does these kind of things - to be paid for material and labour of course.

Once again, truly appreciate all the time of readers and responders

Lesson learnt: If you are not a pro, do not bother with vintage. It will cost you more than the new one.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:36 am 
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Caps are cheap

Most adjustments if not all can be done with a dmm

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:01 am 
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Location: St.Catharines, ON, CA
Plus service manual is available online for free.

Gary


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:05 am 
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Good advice from everyone. I used to own a CA 1010. It was a honey, kinda regret selling it.
You probably know this but it gets hotter than hell when run in Class A.
Make sure it's got room to breathe.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:19 am 
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Gsaltan wrote:
Thank you very much for all the comments, I really appreciate it. Replacing one or two components is one thing, but changing a whole lot of components, with retail prices is another :) This will bring the price of this amplifier to the price of its modern day equivalent, say Yamaha AS-2100 :( This makes me question my logic in purchasing it in the first place :?:

Even if I was able to replace them all by myself, adjustments of this amplifier requires a lot of specific test/measurement equipment.

OK then, let me change my question:

Does anyone know a place in Toronto area who could maybe perform this kind of reconditioning service? Or a member of this forum who does these kind of things - to be paid for material and labour of course.

Once again, truly appreciate all the time of readers and responders

Lesson learnt: If you are not a pro, do not bother with vintage. It will cost you more than the new one.


It's a great amp when it works, but you are going to have to get it restored & rebuilt in order for it to work. So ask yourself if it's worth the time you'll have to wait & the money you'll have to spend. If not, pony-up $5000 and find a new Yamaha A-S2100. All you'll have to do with that beast is plug it in & turn it on.
8)
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_v ... index.html


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:47 am 
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Or spend a grand on an as2000 then kick yourself for not restoring the 1010

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:53 am 
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This amp comes from a golden era, you will be hard pressed to find this kind of quality today without spending an arm and a leg. Get yourself a good soldering iron, some solder wick and a good DMM (Fluke or similar), download the service manual and you should have this baby up and running with little effort. I’d be happy to walk you through a restoration.


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