Canuck Audio Mart Hifi and Audio ForumCanuck Audio Mart Hifi and Audio Forum
It is currently Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:56 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:44 pm
Posts: 595
Location: Crystal Beach, ON, CA
Hi all.

Apologies if this topic has been hashed already. If anything, I'm finding so much info regarding these guys that I can't readily find my answer.

I own a pair of HD650s. I find them nicely detailed, but somewhat weak in the low end range. I see the 700s and 800s pop up for sale on CAM, but, not sure if they'll resolve my issue. Not keen on buying another pair to find I've gained nothing.

So - do the 700 and/or 800 fill in the bottom end better than the 650? Other differences? Or is there another brand that will?

Thanks for any input.

Pat


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:55 pm
Posts: 1198
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
What amplifier are you using?

I haven’t heard them but many feel the 700’s are not as good as the 600/650’s. I do own 800 (non S version) – I find the low end to be very good, not overly emphasized like many other headphones. But amplification is key with these models.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:44 pm
Posts: 595
Location: Crystal Beach, ON, CA
errr..... at the moment? None.

I had done some browsing with my headphones (650) along for the sessions. And, yes, quite a difference - but, still found the bottom to be somewhat weak.

So, I thought, I should find a pair of headphones I like before shopping for the amp.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:55 pm
Posts: 1198
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Headphone.com allows you to build a graph comparing many of the headphones they have measured. The HD 800 (2013 model is the latest version) is just a tad bit more defined from 40hz and below over the other 2 models.

Check it out
http://graphs.headphone.com/index.php?g ... date+Graph

The HD 800’s sound pretty anemic without some grunt behind them. I use the Bryston BHA 1 with a Take Five Audio built balance cable. Will say though, these are super detailed headphones. Not in your face bright but extremely revealing. If a fly farted in the studio, you will hear it!! They will certainly show faults upstream.

I have read that Burson HP amps and the Senn’s 650’s are a excellent match


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 11:11 am
Posts: 132
Location: Edmonton, AB, CA
I have the HD700's and and have had the HD600'd. The 700 series is vastly superior. The bass is much more controlled and less boomy. The 700s are, as reported, bright at first but mine settled down are are very evenhanded across the frequency range. I can't comment on the 800 series as I have not heard them

\KB


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:08 am
Posts: 11
Location: Vancouver, BC, CA
k_brown wrote:
I have the HD700's and and have had the HD600'd. The 700 series is vastly superior. The bass is much more controlled and less boomy. The 700s are, as reported, bright at first but mine settled down are are very evenhanded across the frequency range. I can't comment on the 800 series as I have not heard them

\KB


It's entirely subjective and many would disagree so you're in the minority for saying otherwise.

While I do enjoy the 700's sound very much, I have some issues with it. In terms of detail retrieval, it's a slight improvement over the HD650. This is largely due to a raised treble response. However, its overall presentation is less natural than either the HD650 or the HD800. In this sense, I feel that the HD700 is not a success.

From a sonic perspective, the HD700 tends to be warmer than the HD800 (something which many will appreciate), but it has a more problematic top end. The HD700's tonal balance dances around the line of neutrality, even if it is not quite as neutral as the HD800. While I personally am skeptical of the benefits of burn-in, I do want to mention that my HD700 has been used for less than 100 hours at the time which I am evaluating them. The HD700's bass presentation is just a bit heftier than the HD800's. However it is not quite as tight or extended. Ultimately, I prefer the HD800's bass presentation, but the HD700's bass presentation has its merits. The treble presentation here is awkward. In the opinion of many, the HD700 is warmer than the HD800 (the HD800 has been criticized by some for being too bright). Well, to my ears, the HD700 is even brighter and sharper. With the HD700, cymbals tend to sound a bit strident and untamed. However, as I greatly enjoy several other aspects of the HD700's sound, the treble response doesn't ruin the headphone for me. That said, I am convinced that the HD600's and HD650's treble presentation is more natural.

I find it funny that the HD650 has long been criticized by some for being veiled sounding, while the HD800 has been criticized for being too bright and aggressive. For the first hour or two that I spent listening to the HD700, I was convinced that Sennheiser had nailed the act of merging the two sound signatures. Yet as I listened more and more, I began to feel that the sound was lacking the naturalness of both the HD650 and HD800. For this reason, I consider the HD700 a weaker offering despite its many merits.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:50 pm
Posts: 1033
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick, NB, CA
My advice would be to buy, beg, borrow, rent, or steal a headphone amp, and drive your 650's properly.

THEN decide if you still find them lacking in bass.

You are presently not hearing their full potential.

Been down this path.....

Good Luck, del Sol


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:15 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:42 am
Posts: 15
Location: Espanola, ON, CA
Hi: I have had the opportunity to own all 3 headphones and for me( everyone's hearing and taste in music being different) the HD 800s are far and above my choice. Their detail and expanded soundstage are simply better. However as posted you need a reasonable amp/dac to fully enjoy them. I use the Teac UD-501 and HA 501 combo with great success. The HD 800s are not the end-all be-all of headphones. I also own the OPPO PM-1s for their sure musicality and the Stax 2701 earspeaker system for a fresh take on the music I listen to.

The sad part about headphones are that many are similar but no two are alike. And like the fact that like there is no perfect all-around vehicle there is no perfect headphone (you even see Focal Utopias up for resale). If you commit to the Senn Hd800s you commit to a better amp/dac arrangement but this opens the future for you to add new high end headphones to your system.

Please buy headphones that expand your enjoyment of the type of music you listen to rather than buying in to the hype or status of any particular headphone. I have owned over 20 sets of headphones (many hyped and reviewed as super duper) that I have since sold to end up with a combination that works for me and my enjoyment of jazz and female vocalists such as Eva Cassidy and Lara Fabien.


Hope this helps ,rather than adds to the confusion.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:42 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:50 pm
Posts: 1033
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick, NB, CA
[quote="thecafemanme my enjoyment of jazz and female vocalists such as Eva Cassidy and Lara Fabien"

Hmmmm, I'm not familiar with Lara Fabien.....will check her out ASAP.

Tx for the tip.

To the OP.....you didn't mention, but I assume you are playing FLAC or WMA LOSSLESS files, not ugh, MP3's.

If we lived in closer proximity, I would lend you a spare HP amp to try.

Cheers, del Sol


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:12 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:44 pm
Posts: 595
Location: Crystal Beach, ON, CA
Good points all through.

Not that I managed to test drive many headphone amps, I did enjoy the Teac one best of the few. I have not tried any very expensive ones.

To the last question... I don't know what digital format the files were queued up in the stores when I demo'd. And, apparently, the salesmen didn't know either. :?

At home, for the time, I'm running vinyl and cd/sacd thru my mac preamp (C48).


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:55 pm
Posts: 1198
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
thecafeman wrote:
If you commit to the Senn Hd800s you commit to a better amp/dac arrangement but this opens the future for you to add new high end headphones to your system.


Well put!

del Sol - fully agree that Lossless can be vastly superior than Lossly. But in some cases we do not have a choice. I own a lot of old punk demo’s from back in the 80’s that were probably recorded in some kid’s garage using a cheap Radio Shack cassette recorder. The original tapes are long gone and all that is left is archived MP3’s. The fidelity is sh!t – but it was never there to begin with. However, the music is awesome (if you are into this stuff). Same can be said about the early days of recorded music. Love Charlie Patton, but regardless of it’s format, be it lossless or lossy (to an extent) it all sounds the same!

Pat – never hear the Teac dedicated HA 501 amp but I do own the UD 501. Great DAC but it’s headphone out is adequate at best. Certainly not recommended for the 650’s or the higher tier Sennheiser’s


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:03 am
Posts: 827
Location: Brampton, ON, CA
Hi Pat,

I second del Sol's comments about trying a good headphone amp before moving up the headphone chain.

I purchased a Chord Mojo a year and a half ago and it took my headphones up more than a few notches. I have the lowly HD598's and want to move up the chain as well, but the Mojo elevated them enough to buy me some time and enjoy what the 598's were capable of for the time being.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:50 pm
Posts: 1033
Location: Moncton, New Brunswick, NB, CA
Just re-read the OP, and it seems that the main complaint is unsatisfactory bass.

When and IF you decide to try other phones, (after first trying out some HP amps), check out some closed back phones.
They tend to have "tighter" bass than open backs.

HeadFi. org forum is also a great resource for headphone folks.

Cheers, del Sol


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:17 pm
Posts: 2
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
I think a Focal Elear is worth trying if you want a tight. clean, well extended and punchy bass and great everything else. I have owned HD600. 650 and 800 and have the Elear now. Elear has much nicer bass than any of the Sennheisers and a much fuller sound than HD800. I found HD800 lacking bass quantity and having too much mid-treble emphasis (6kHz). I prefer HD600 to the HD800 actually - the latter is simply more tonally balanced, even though the bass is much tighter, deeper and cleaner on the HD800. HD650 sounded a little "plasticy" to me in the highs and a bit muddy in the bass. I think in terms of tonal balance HD600 > HD650 > Elear > HD800. Bass performance: Elear > HD800 > HD650 >= HD600. Mids performance: HD800 > HD650 > HD600 > Elear (Elear has an upper midrange dip that takes away from the presence of vocals and many instruments, but it's not too bad). Treble performance: HD600 >= HD800 >= Elear > HD650. Stereo image size/soundstage: HD800 >> Elear >= HD650 > HD600. Dynamics: Elear >= HD800 > HD650 >= HD600. Clarity: HD800 >= Elear > HD600 > HD650. Transparency: HD600 > HD650 > Elear > HD800. So as you can see, I think each has its strengths and weaknesses despite totally different price points. I can't say any one is clearly superior to the others. But surely if you want the best bass, Elear is the way to go. For best transparency/approximation of the original recording HD600 is the way to go. I don't recommend HD800, unless you like a bright, lean sound... I haven't tried the HD800S yet, nor the HD700. I read that HD700 has even brighter treble peaks than HD800, while also having inferior quality bass and more dip the mids. Not very good at all if you ask me. I would skip the HD700.

EDIT: Also, please try a good planar headphone by Hifiman or Audeze. Planars generally have superb bass if well designed and much better than most dynamic headphones. HD800 and Elear can compete with planars in the bass though, but planars still have superior texture and definition. The problem is that planars don't punch very hard though, like dynamics can... But you have to try to understand what I mean.


Last edited by vm2707 on Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:03 pm 
Online
Premium User
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:36 pm
Posts: 3359
Location: Vernon, BC, CA
vm2707 wrote:
I think a Focal Elear is worth trying if you want a tight. clean, well extended and punchy bass and great everything else.

Just like the pair you have for sale?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group