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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:53 am 
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Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 6:57 am
Posts: 8
Location: Val-des-Monts, QC, CA
I am a long-time owner of a pair of Acoustat electrostatic loudpeakers (model 2mH), and am now in a new house where my sound room isn't the greatest... and I have placement / positioning problems.

Problem #1 is that I cannot have the speakers very far from the back wall (18 inches max)
Problem #2 is that the floor, ceiling and walls are all solid pine wood (this is a log home). Not much I can do acoustically (I have placed a large throw rug on the floor, which helps, but every other surface is very reflective).
Problem #3 is that I have not yet found my original owner's manual, which was very rudimentary to say the least, but I seem to recall it provided some very basic placement tips...

The worse symptom I am trying to address right now is what I can the "Acoustat venetian blind effect"... it's like the listener's head has to be in a vise. The smallest movement of your head (at the listening 'sweet spot') results in vast and wild response changes. The sonic image wildly shifts left or right, and the frequency response also dramatically shifts. I suspect this is the result of phase or frequency cancellations. I also personally suspect I'd be better off with only one panel (not two) per speaker, but that's just a suspicion and not an option.

I tried my prior placement, which had the speakers oriented towards the listening sweet spot, I tried them pointing straight out (way from the back wall), and I tried a number of positions between these extremes. No joy. Pointing to the sweet spot, I get the venetian blind effect. Pointing straight out, that effect is gone, but so is the image.

Help? Anyone have some advice?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:01 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:50 pm
Posts: 10915
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
It sounds like the room is a disaster, and a speaker that minimizes the room interaction may be a better choice.

Have you tried to hang a room treatment on the wall behind the speaker? Owen's corning 703(?) insulation may be a good choice. As would bass traps.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:02 am 
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Location: Stoney Creek, ON, CA
Sounds frustrating.

It might be helpful to include more information about the size of your room and where your listening position is in relation to the speakers.

If you give us a bit more detail, you will probably get a more satisfying response.

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If the upper meter shows a higher level than the
lower meter, turn BIAS clockwise.
If the lower meter shows a higher level than the
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:37 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:17 pm
Posts: 2046
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Panels... they're like headphones in my experience. A very small sweet spot, nothing special if you're standing up either. Granted when I listen off axis it's still nice just not as nice as the sweet spot.

Andre is your man for all things Acoustat though. He will know.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:07 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:41 pm
Posts: 329
Location: Guelph, ON, CA
Hi AbstractFlight

I've owned Acoustat 3s for awhile and can definitely sympathise.

This may sound counterintuitive but I've found (and I think the manual states) that soundstage width can be increased by adjusting the speaker toe in so that they point toward a spot in front of the listening position. It took awhile for me to get used to the look of it and you'll lose a bit of the pinpoint imaging you get with the "head" in a vice" positioning but at least you'll be able to move around while listening.
Also, as I'm sure you know, deadening the wall behind the speakers is a must. I used sound absorption panels and bass traps. Others have recommended covering the whole back wall with heavy drapes.
FWIW
chris


Last edited by cjb on Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:14 am 
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Posts: 1123
Location: Fairport Beach (in Pickering), ON, CA
mortron wrote:
Panels... they're like headphones in my experience. A very small sweet spot, nothing special if you're standing up either. Granted when I listen off axis it's still nice just not as nice as the sweet spot.

Andre is your man for all things Acoustat though. He will know.


IIRC Andre publicly withdrew some months ago from participating in the forum. :wink:

I believe he traded his Acoustat's for Bose 901's. :lol:

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Pilot (Pilotone) gear: AA-410A, AA-901, PA-911, SA-232, SA-260, SP-210


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:31 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:42 am
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Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Wow I can't believe I'm saying this.

Those "Acoustat - Heaven on Earth" guys here can definitely help. :shock:

Otherwise, a great placement for them is on the curb on the driveway. :lol:







ok ok its a joke.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:34 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:17 pm
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Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Is it really a joke though? :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:40 am 
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Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Radical toe-in might help too. It gets some sounds from the right speaker to the left ear (and left speaker to right ear); it creates a cross-talk that is so necessary to good binaural hearing. But nothing beats room treatment.

Whatever happened to the "microphone in the ear" recording style? Anyone using that?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:18 am 
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Location: J5C 1S3
mortron wrote:
Panels... they're like headphones in my experience. A very small sweet spot, nothing special if you're standing up either. Granted when I listen off axis it's still nice just not as nice as the sweet spot.

Andre is your man for all things Acoustat though. He will know.


Hi mortron #1 the sweet spot is more than enough for ME that's what is important #2 the speaker being 94 inches high and my ceiling 96 there is absolutely no difference standing or sitting but i am more confortable sitting #3 when i'm listening i don't care how my speakers sound moving around because i don't #4 after hearing the 16k Audio Exklusiv P3.1 stats at T.A.V.E.S. 2012 on the weekend wich i found very good i'm extremely happy with my 28 years old Acoustat's i would put them up agains't the Audio Exklusiv without any worries.

PS: With a panel as wide as a models - 2 - 3 or 4s they need even more room to breathe than my two panels stacked 1+1 verticaly and my room is at it's limit 13x20 my panels are at 3 feet from the rear wall my friend Jocelyn's model Spectra 8800s stacked 4+4 are 41 inches wide by 102 inches high but are at 7 feet from the rear wall the only probem is that AbstractFlight NEEDS MORE ROOM THAT'S IT

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Chord CPM-2600 integrated amplifier - Chord One cd player - Acoustat 1+1 speakers
Life without Acoustat is possible BUT i wouldn't dare.


Last edited by MrAcoustat on Sun May 04, 2014 11:23 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:44 am 
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Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 6:57 am
Posts: 8
Location: Val-des-Monts, QC, CA
I will measure my room tonight and maybe sketch it roughly (assuming I can post the drawing somewhere) to see if it helps the discussion. I have not had serious problems with those speakers before, and I am merely trying to get them to the same level in the new room. Off the top of my head, the room is 17' x 13' (the speakers are backed against the 17' long wall, about 18" away). The back "wall" doesn't exist (the entire floor is "open concept", 17' x 30'), except for an open staircase. I would have expected this to be enough room for a pair of 2's...

Thanks for all the tips to date.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:21 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:13 pm
Posts: 4304
Location: Fisher Branch, MB, CA
I couldn't figure out how to upload an open office document of a sketch of how I have set up my 2+2's and model 4's. :evil:

My dining room is actually a little smaller than yours (12' x 16') but I have open doorways (open concept) on each side of the 2+2's and they are 5' from the back wall. I do have them toed in so that a line from them converges slightly in front of the sweet spot on my couch 10' away. The model 4 panels are much too close to the walls and couch (right in the corner) but surprisingly work very well as surround speakers. Kind of overkill but I love the sound of panels too much not to. :D

Even in this less than ideal arrangement I still get a soundstage beyond the sides of the panels and decent imaging. I am sure they would be even better with a larger room but that's what I've got to work with. The living room is much larger (17' x 22') with a 10' ceiling but there is a snooker table in the middle of it.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:06 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:13 pm
Posts: 2297
Location: Penticton, BC, CA
Here is my .02 as a former panel man…

Do everything you can to increase the distance from the rear walls…believe it or not even adding three inches can help

Do everything you can to help minimize reflections on the rear and side walls…plants, pictures, I even used to temporarily put up old speaker grills covered with towels

Establish your exact listening position and then spend some time experimenting with your toe in…it is super critical on panels

If all else fails then sell them and buy some Totems – few speakers can image so well in so many different rooms with such little adjustment required.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:01 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:36 pm
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Location: J5C 1S3
AbstractFlight wrote:
I am a long-time owner of a pair of Acoustat electrostatic loudpeakers (model 2mH), and am now in a new house where my sound room isn't the greatest... and I have placement / positioning problems.

Problem #1 is that I cannot have the speakers very far from the back wall (18 inches max)
Problem #2 is that the floor, ceiling and walls are all solid pine wood (this is a log home). Not much I can do acoustically (I have placed a large throw rug on the floor, which helps, but every other surface is very reflective).
Problem #3 is that I have not yet found my original owner's manual, which was very rudimentary to say the least, but I seem to recall it provided some very basic placement tips...

The worse symptom I am trying to address right now is what I can the "Acoustat venetian blind effect"... it's like the listener's head has to be in a vise. The smallest movement of your head (at the listening 'sweet spot') results in vast and wild response changes. The sonic image wildly shifts left or right, and the frequency response also dramatically shifts. I suspect this is the result of phase or frequency cancellations. I also personally suspect I'd be better off with only one panel (not two) per speaker, but that's just a suspicion and not an option.

I tried my prior placement, which had the speakers oriented towards the listening sweet spot, I tried them pointing straight out (way from the back wall), and I tried a number of positions between these extremes. No joy. Pointing to the sweet spot, I get the venetian blind effect. Pointing straight out, that effect is gone, but so is the image.

Help? Anyone have some advice?


You can download the owners manual FREE here.

http://www.audiocircuit.com/Home-Audio/Acoustat/2-MH

What are the room's measurements please ?????

_________________
Chord CPM-2600 integrated amplifier - Chord One cd player - Acoustat 1+1 speakers
Life without Acoustat is possible BUT i wouldn't dare.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:35 am 
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Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 6:57 am
Posts: 8
Location: Val-des-Monts, QC, CA
Original poster here... sorry for delay in posting measurements / pictures, I was away on business all week, could read the forum but not measure anything.

I'll try to attach two jpegs here, so wish me luck, this is my first time on this forum. One is a sketch with dimensions, the other is an actual picture taken from halfway up the stairs.

As you'll see, my options to move the acoustats away from the wall are very limited (because of the door on the left wall). I could move them in closer to one another by rearranging the layout, which would give me a little bit of wiggle room to move them away from the back wall.

I'm listening to you guys with ears wide open, and huge thanks for taking the time to help me with this (and no hard feelings for the ones who suggested I put them on the curb for garbage pickup ;-)


Attachments:
layout_salon_photo.jpg
layout_salon_photo.jpg [ 82.98 KiB | Viewed 1769 times ]
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layout_salon.jpg [ 27.22 KiB | Viewed 1769 times ]
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