Canuck Audio MartCanuck Audio Mart

Canuck Audio Mart

Canada's Largest online Hifi/Audio Site!
It is currently Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:38 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 97 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Blind Listening Sessions - RCA Cables
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:15 am
Posts: 984
Blind Listening Sessions - RCA Cables

Here is one event that I have been meaning to proceed with for quite some time: a strict, well-designed comparison between bog-standard RCA interconnects and ‘high-end’ models. I ran this document by a number of Canuck Audio Mart members prior to proceeding with it in order to tweak the process, as I long ago realized that group consciousness works wonders at covering all the angles.

Participants included three CAM members: Goose / Kink / Digital, two non-members: David (accountant), Jakub (professional musician) and my wife (casually during the second session). The location was at my home in our [heavily modified for this procedure], living room.

This event was precipitated by the endless banter back and forth between audio enthusiasts online, in magazines and pretty much wherever audiophiles get together in any way.

These six individuals were broken up into two groups over one day - an afternoon and an evening ‘shift’. The lone female was my wife, who casually listened during the second session, mostly I suspect, to see if we were truly out of our minds :-).

Some inspiration came from a ‘Secrets of Home Theater & Hi Fidelity’ article seen here: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_1 ... -2004.html in 2004.

As much as their process ended up with the result I expected, there were however, a few additional improvements I felt we could implement. I also wished to address feedback suggestions garnered from online / post-evaluation discussions about the ‘Secrets’ cable test. The audiophile environment being what it is, I understand that there will be controversy after this evaluation as well. I ask that it be framed as constructive criticism, not angry missives. Please forward input to me at cablereview@hotmail.com. I am more than willing to reproduce this test in any other home / studio environment, with different front-end hardware, cables, software and guests – as long as its within a decent driving distance of my home, say within 400 miles of the Okanagan Valley, (or perhaps even further if you have a great ski hill nearby for a morning session).

Seating: Given the amount of participants in the aforementioned ‘Secrets’ test, there was simply no way that everyone, or perhaps anyone for that matter, could gain a quality stereo image. I decided that three individuals per session would be a sufficient number to offer a valid opinion if all had ideal seating positions. The vertically staggered, inline seating employed for our listening tests allowed just that. Participants rotated between seats and cable switching duties. While we could not duplicate ‘by the book’ speaker placement with the staggered seating layout, I felt that we arrived at a quality stereo image with both locations. I favored the front position as I like to be immersed in the music, while two other participants favored the rear seating position.

Transducers: Seeking greater depth and accuracy, we employed a set of one-year-old Magneplanar 1.6QRs panel loudspeakers. I felt that we gained enhanced clarity in the midrange with planar drivers over cones. Additionally we utilized dual Paradigm Acoustics PDR-12 subwoofers, run subtly in the background to augment the planar loudspeakers only weakness: bass. Overall, it was universally agreed within the group that this combination of transducers made for a stunning audio presentation.

Physical Layout: It was felt that the front-end hardware should be removed from the listening area altogether, not just blanketed as in the ‘Secrets’ audition. Luckily, our listening area featured an immediately adjacent room with a door affixed, allowing runs of speaker cable out of the main listening area into said adjacent room where the amplification and source devices were housed. Reasons for doing so included less distractions for the listeners, isolation for the cable swappers and an added depth to the ‘blindness’ of the test as a whole, that is; no audible clues through body language / cable jacket or connector noises etc.

Room acoustics: Very little mention was made of the room acoustics in the ‘Secrets’ article. However, as the room plays a large part of the audible equation, efforts were made to enhance the already great listening area with strategic placement of absorbent materials and arrangement of furnishing to acoustically balance the room. Many “thanks” go out to my wife for allowing us to turn the house upside down for a day!

Tweaks: Several measures were undertaken to fulfill audiophile tweak baselines:

We ran a separate ac power line from the homeÂ’s main power panel directly into the second bedroom where the amplifier / CD player were housed and capped this line with a Hubbell hospital-grade plug assembly.

In the area where I live we donÂ’t have a great deal of difficulties with power fluctuations / brownouts or spikes. ItÂ’s a small city with an apparently robust electrical infrastructure. In pursuit of electrical purity however, we employed a Tripp Lite voltage regulator and conditioner for the amplifier and CD player.

Having read much about possible detrimental effects of not warming up equipment before listening sessions as well as powering devices on / off between cable swaps, both the amplifier and CD player was left on overnight prior to the testing. At no time during the test were these devices turned off. The amplifier was set to its ‘mute’ state during cable swaps so that the volume control was never touched. For even greater security, the volume control was taped in place to avoid accidental movements.

There was one other concern noted which we were not able to address: certain individuals apparently feel that merely moving an interconnect cable is enough to ‘disturb’ it, thus altering the sound of said cable. They feel that interconnect cables require several hours to ‘settle’ between physical movements. Given the real world constraints of time, people with lives to lead etc., we were not able to assess the validity of this hypothesis. At any rate, it was felt that that any possible ill effects from ‘disturbing the cables’ were far less than the negative effect we would have experienced in musical memory between swaps should we have waited for cables to ‘settle’ between changes.

Hardware: Amplification was performed by Roksan’s multiple award-winning Kandy III integrated unit – (www.roksan.co.uk/kan_amplifier.html). The Kandy III features a robust 1.6mm solid steel chassis construction, 6mm solid aluminum front panel and straightforward design, eschewing tone, balance, stereo/mono etc., controls, thus is about as close to ‘straight wire with gain’ as an integrated amplifier can get. With it’s 50OVA toroidal transformer and 4-ohm / 220 watt per channel specification, it offers more than enough juice to cleanly power the Maggies; (www.magneplanar.com/_mg16.php). Only one of the 12 people I asked to preview the test process mentioned that I might wish to consider a different amplifier. However, I have lived with this unit for a few months and feel that it offers very clean signal amplification. Euro publication What HiFi said of this device: “the Kandy has the guts to render the performance exciting and dynamic, but also the guile to deliver subtle details. Timing and rhythm are excellent, treble is sweet and detailed, the result is a breathtaking Best Buy that betters its competition with ease”.

Our main CD source, the Pioneer Elite DV45a (www.pioneerelectronics.ca/pna/product/d ... 99,00.html), allowed us to audition SACD and ‘classic Redbook’ audio CDs. The Elite is a quality unit featuring triple 192KHz/24-bit Burr-Brown DACs and Hi-Bit Legato Link Conversion. After hundreds of hours of researching which CD player to employ for this test, many times thinking I had the perfect unit - one that was lauded in online forums or print magazines, I would find several other derogatory reviews for the same unit elsewhere. This constant underlining of how fickle audiophile tastes are simply reinforced my beliefs that any modern, quality-built CD drive would fit the bill just fine.

During the second listening session we also employed a Musical Fidelity X-24K 24/96 outboard DAC, connected to the Elite via a ‘Kimber Illuminations D-60’ digital cable, thus turning the Elite into a simple transport. We were curious if an outboard DAC would make a difference in discerning subtle nuances in program material.

Speaker cables consisted of a pair of four-year old, eleven-foot lengths of 12-gauge Audio stream ‘Ultrastream’, cleanly re-stripped and inserted. The single wire (vs. bi-wire), was kept more or less as strait as possible and did not cross any power cables.

The focus of this audition: the Interconnects (mainly), featured a set of 15 dollar Koss PRM46s and Luscombe LBR-35 Silvers at $335.00. Different construction materials and methodologies: copper vs. silver / factory vs. hand-made, made these two units ideal to fulfill the goal we sought; finding out if cheap cables as well as cables of different design affect the signal passing through in an audible way.

Media: Selection of media was based on clarity of recording / mix / dynamic range and overall production. I painstakingly selected recordings based on the aforementioned parameters. Two participants were supplied with advance copies of the material to be auditioned two months in advance, two were not.

Track listings employed in this test:

John Lee Hooker Tupelo Redbook
From the album ‘Chill Out’. As close to A cappella as one finds in modern blues. Tupelo pounces between spoken word and dynamic acoustic guitar efforts. JLH’s clean, powerful picking on this track is a challenge to both loudspeaker and amplifier’s ability in presenting faithful transients.

Paul Simon She moves on Redbook
Taken from, IMHO, one of Paul Simons’ greatest albums; Rhythm of the Saints. Loads of velvety bass, addictive like a smooth Merlot! Bass guitar, conga, bongo, sordu, saxophone, piccolo trumpet, and haunting background vocals combine into what can only be described as ‘art in sound’. In fact, it was difficult to pick just one song from the CD to audition as the entire release is fantastic!

Sarah McLachlan Blue Redbook
Cover of Joni Mitchell’s beautiful song from her 1971 eponymous LP. In my opinion, one of the sweetest songs to pass the lips of Sarah McLachlan. This is a “play it again” tune every time, (luckily, we had every reason to do so), as the recording’s depth utterly draws one in. A combination of superb piano / cello / organ playing and one of this era’s silkiest female voices.

Cowboy Junkies Sweet Jane Redbook - Calrec
Another cover, this time the Lou Reed / Velvet Underground, taken from the Cowboy Junkie’s 1988 ‘Trinity Sessions’ CD. This cover is elegant and dead on, depending on how you feel about Lou’s voice, maybe even an improvement on the original. C.J. employed the Calrec microphone recording technique on the entire album. Every audiophile owes it to himself or herself to hear Calrec done right - as displayed on this release. Margo Timmins’ smoky voice & style has long been a favorite of mine and she certainly doesn’t disappoint here. Note, we also auditioned the Cowboy Junkies rendition of an old classic: Blue Moon.

Bob Dylan Buckets of rain SACD
From the 1975 masterpiece ‘Blood on the tracks’. This 2003 re-release CD, remastered into SACD format, offers us Bob’s wonderfully nasal style as he leads us through a maze of energetic steel guitar playing. A fantastic production job brings out stunning resolution on the disc.

Loreena McKennitt Breaking the Silence Redbook
This amazing tribute to Amnesty International, taken from the Parallel Dreams CD showcases some of the strongest vocals short of opera that I have ever enjoyed – an absolutely beautiful vocal talent, backed by an eclectic collection of instruments including: ukalin, guitar, bass, pzud, tambourine, conga and uda drum.

During the second listening session we carried on a bit longer than expected. In addition to the above tracks, we added the Cowboy Junkies singing Blue Moon (Calrec), Eric ClaptonÂ’ Malted Milk and Old Love (DDD), as well as several tracks from The Muddy Waters Tribute Band (Telarc DDD) and various Hayden pieces as performed by the Skampa Quartet (DDD).

In both sessions, the selected recordings were an absolute treat to listen to repeatedly, making this experiment a real joy rather than a ponderous effort. We didn’t favor the ‘Secrets’ method of playing short snippets of music as it was felt that would be an annoyance to listeners, not to mention an emotional letdown given the substance of the songs being presented.


Protocol & Procedures

A ‘modified’ ABX blind test;

Listeners enjoyed a full presentation of a song with an identified cable (cable A)
Listeners enjoys a full presentation of the same song with identified cable (cable B)
*Listener were allowed to request a repeat of identified cables A or B as often as required
Listeners enjoys a full presentation of the same song using unidentified cable ‘X’
Listeners are asked to identify which cable ‘X’ was and mark a form with their answer

* A number of which were made

CD player / amplification / RCA cables and swapper were isolated in a separate room

In each of the sessions, choice of ‘cable X’ was selected by a coin toss;

Heads = Silver LBR-35 is used
Tales = Koss PRM46 is used

Cable switchers and listeners were responsible for recording all coin toss results / ‘Cable X’ selections, so that they could be compared to the listeners selections later. The cable switcher / audition sheet are available for review by emailing me at cablereview@hotmail.com. I tried to post them online, but the formatting ended up a mess when translated into HTML.

At no time during the auditioning or answering stage were listeners able to see any of the hardware in the second bedroom. Thus, the answers were up to listeners to feel / sense / hear correctly.

As cable switchers were situated in a separate room, the three participants took turns in a cycle acting as switchers. The process worked like this;

Seating arrangements had the three participants in the following positions;

- An elevated leather office chair that allowed a clear field of sound over a low easy chair
- A low easy chair, situated directly in line with a high back leather office chair behind it
- Isolated in an adjacent room conducting cable switches

(picture at bottom of page)

Example; I would be the cable switcher for a round of three identical songs: announcing aloud as I went along: “the first musical presentation using Luscombe Silvers”, followed in due time by “the second musical presentation using Koss cables” and finally, “the third musical presentation using Cable X”, (cable X being decided by my coin toss).

The other two participants auditioned from their listening room seating positions, made their choices as to what ‘X’ was, then marked & pocketed their tally sheets. I stripped the components of RCA cables to avoid any (obvious), hints for the next switcher as to the last cable auditioned.

We then rotate; the individual sitting in the easy chair took up the post as cable switcher. I rotated to the ‘back of the line’ as it were, in the high-back leather office chair, whose occupant moved forward to the lower easy chair. I and the other listener, enjoyed three musical presentations of a song, A/B/X, made our choices, marked our sheets & pocketed them. I then moved forward, taking the seating position of the lower chair, whose occupant moved to the other room as a cable switcher. The individual currently in the ‘switching room’ stripped RCA cables from the components and moved to the leather office chair behind me and proceeded to enjoy a song three times; A/B/X, along with me, rotation continued…

This rotation process had a number of benefits; allowing all involved to enjoy the presentation from two aurally excellent and eminently comfortable ‘sweet spots’, each with it’s own acoustic environment (cloth vs. leather / higher position vs. lower position). It also relieved restlessness and encourages participation in all facets of the test. Seating arrangements were set up with great care, speaker / seating / overall arrangement & layout was measured to within millimeters.

Taking a cue from the ‘Secrets’ power cord test in which they wished to avoid cable detection by timing cues, we unplugged / reinserted RCA cables when it came time to audition ‘Cable X’ even if the same cables were, according to the coin-toss, to be returned to equipment. In explanation; if listeners had just auditioned;

1st The Silver LBR-35
2nd The Koss PRM 46Â’s

…and a coin toss to decide ‘Cable X’ directed the switcher to leave the Koss PRM 46’s plugged in; they were unplugged and re-inserted anyway, in order to mimic an actual change, thus negating any timing cues.

Since both the Silver LBR-35 and the Koss PRM 46 were side-by-side and equally accessible to the switcher, cable-switching time was close to equal in all cases. An additional note, it was decided that we should always use one amplifier input (we chose the CD input), as opposed to the easier route of simply plugging one set of cables into LINE1 and the other into LINE2. It made for a little more work, but made us feel that we were leaving ‘no stone unturned’.

Sound pressure level was held constant for each trial by using the Kandy’s mute function between cable swaps / CD swaps and, as mentioned earlier, keeping the volume control firmly taped in position. Reading the ‘Secrets’ listener comments it was clear that a number of the participants felt that the size of the group hindered their relaxation. This only served to reinforce our belief in using small groups with excellent seating positions rather than large groups hoping that ‘more is better’.

At the end of the second session we also A/B/X auditioned a set of Kimber PBJ cables. The results were nearly identical to the Luscombe vs. Koss auditioning session.

Which brings us to the results. What did we find?

The best results were in my favor, a little over 80 percent accuracy in the first session, approximately 65 percent in the second. Trouble is… I was truly guessing in both cases. In the end, there simply weren’t any audio clues available to me that might have assisted in correct cable identification. During ‘Identified Cable A’ listening sessions when I thought that perhaps the Luscombe Silver cables were a dead giveaway vs. the ‘Identified Cable B’ listening sessions… it all fell to hell when it came time to identify ‘Cable X’, which is where I was, more often than not, simply grasping at straws.

Not to be outdone, all of my peers came to the same conclusions :-). Our cockiness and surety was dust in the wind when it came to the end of the listening session and we tallied our ‘scores’ against the accumulated key of what cables were used and when.

Three of us in the first listening session were all either ‘sitting on the fence’ or simply what I humorously call ‘cable-atheists’. The two individuals in the second group however were both very firm believers in the doctrine that suggests RCA audio cables make a difference in the signal / sound which passed through them. I must admit, I, the cable disbeliever extraordinaire - also had a certain small nagging belief that the expensive Silver cables would be at least ever-so-lightly noticeable.

It was quite interesting to speak with the two ‘Session 2’ participants prior to the beginning of their cable auditions. We discussed what to listen for, subtle nuances, resonance of instruments, rhythm and pace, tonal balance, imaging, dynamics, placement on stage etc. In fact, at that point I felt that perhaps I was in for a real lesson. The result when session 2 was over however found both gentlemen exhibiting less than exemplary correct cable selections. One individual correctly identified the cables with less than 20 percent accuracy and the other with less than 50 percent correct identifications – very different from the high scoring I somehow expected from two seasoned, hard-core audiophiles.

It bears mentioning that one of these gentlemen is an active member of a Symphony Orchestra, a ‘Golden Ear’ by any usual audiophile standard, with a beautiful Conrad Johnson / Classé Audio system at home, the other individual has attended an absolute record number of live performances and sports a none-too-shabby Musical Fidelity (full system) at his residence. Both commented several times on how accurate and impressive they felt the audio reproduction was from the stereo system we had assembled.

Now donÂ’t get me wrong. These fellows were not any better or worse than the rest of us and I donÂ’t mean to demean them in any way, in fact, they are both great individuals. I simply point out that I did quite well in the listening sessions because I was down to guessing a great many times and I quite simply got damn lucky with my guesses. In fact, I suppose you might say that I was guessing the whole time because, case in point: there simply was no discernable difference between either of these cables.

Later that afternoon, after the ‘official’ sessions were over, members of the second session A/B/X auditioned Kimber PBJ cables, a little more of the Koss cables used earlier and even a set of bog-standard, $2.49 ‘freebee’ cables, the kind that the hi-fi shop tells folks to “just chuck in the garbage”. We employed the highest quality Telarc DDD recordings, a high-end outboard DAC and the Magneplanar loudspeakers / cables as in the first two listening sessions - we still had no idea which cables were which.

I suspect that there will be an uproar about this whole event, but I can only relate to you what the experiences of both groups were. I have toyed with a great many RCA cables over the years, but have never been able to definitively form a peer-reviewed answer to the cable question – now I have one: RCA cables, be they silver or copper, don’t make an audible difference in a normal installation.

In a situation where there was a great deal of electromagnetic, RF or some other radio interference, perhaps triple shielding would make a difference in the rejection of these unwanted signals. However, as far as an audible differenceÂ… its your money, if its burning a hole in your pocket and you want to purchase cables for aesthetic reasons, by all means go for it, but donÂ’t expect to get an audible boost for your system. Speaking of which, I too think that some of the big-dollar cables look great and compliment a system just fine. ItÂ’s just that the fees asked for these cables are quite often exorbitant and the claims made by the manufacturers are more than a little far fetched.

Many will say that A/B/X testing is too strenuous, too stressful. To that I can only answer, we were a very calm, relaxed group of people with no undue apprehensiveness or frustration. Our seating was eminently comfortable and the atmosphere in the room and between attendees was warm and fun. I was correct in assuming that fewer members would make a much better listening environment. The next A/B/X test that I conduct (Power Cables in the fall), will keep the numbers low and comfort level high as well.

I can only strongly suggest that you take a day and organize a similar A/B/X test of your own. Don’t take our word for it, buckle down and conduct your own auditioning session. All of the processes and procedures I have presented here can be considered ‘Public Domain’. I welcome you to use this document as a beginning of your own journey to discovery of the truth about cables.

A suggestion from auditioning group 1 that was employed in auditioning group 2 was a casual listening session of a varied selection of music prior to the ‘real’ listening session beginning. This allowed attendees to ‘settle in’ to the sound of the room, the speakers and generally just ‘get comfortable’ with everything.

Participants also suggested that AX/BX might be an interesting way to conducting these tests. It would make for a longer listening session, but is a valid hypothesis. Additional input suggested that CD levels, being different from disc to disc might play a bit of havoc with the auditioning procedure, though this is tough to avoid given the wide variety of production / mastering methods employed past / present. One way might be to work with a single CD / same artist.

Perhaps an exceptionally high quality disc such as that from Mapleshade / Telarc / Sheffield - Direct to Disc / DDD etc. CD would suffice? Of course, then folks might be upset that you used a single artist to base your conclusions on, but I see no other way around the variances in CD output level.

Final thoughts: have fun! A listening session with a group of fellow audiophiles is a great way to spend an afternoon!

Andrew D.

Image
Image


Last edited by Digital on Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: re Test
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:01 pm
Posts: 899
Location: Smalltown, ON, CA
Congratulations:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:15 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 2049
Location: Montreal, QC, CA
Congratulations on your hard work--and not least on the work involved in sharing the procedure you chose and its results.

I don't intend to sell my Ensemble cables, but I intend to be more open-minded in future with those who say cables make no difference. And I think I will attempt a similar test myself, as you suggest... in good time.

I do have a hesitation about one aspect of your procedure and will probably not adopt it myself. If I understand correctly, the objective of the test was to identify which cable was in use at a given time (i.e. to identify 'cable X').

My music listening system is not intended to allow me to identify cables by ear, but rather to give me a chance to substitute components when I feel a new one improves the sound. This goal--improving the system--is what makes me a hobbyist as well as a music lover. (Just to clarify, I also believe my system allows me to enjoy music, which is another of its goals.)

If I should do a test, then, I would ask the listeners to undertake a different task from yours. Perhaps it would be to say when a cable had been changed and when it had not, and which state of the system they preferred.

Congratulations again, and thank you all for sharing the details and results of your well-planned and exhaustive procedure.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Rock & Roll
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:48 pm
Posts: 1439
Location: Campbell River, BC, CA
Wow alot effort , can not see how one can fault measurement test done as such.
Well done !!
I hope no Mud Slinging , looks like was honest test .
Well I guess my ears work too .... was begining to wonder .
Good luck on power cables....I built my own they look great anyway.
Maybe now more people will put money into other things that really do help !
But really doubt this will change minds of true believers ..on either side.....
After all once spend big bucks it MUST be better / differant....
Least thats how I feel.. :roll:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:31 pm
Posts: 363
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Nicely done!

I found it easier to analyze changes through headphones. This is easy for me since my main source is Benchmark DAC1 which has a headphone output.

Over speakers, it is often a guessing game.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 8:15 am
Posts: 2303
Location: Newmarket, ON, CA
krazyclocks wrote:
Wow alot effort , can not see how one can fault measurement test done as such.
Well done !!
I hope no Mud Slinging , looks like was honest test .


I agree, there should be no mud slinging, in fact in the context of the Luscombe audition ring the listeners here should be accorded exactly the same respect as every other listener participating in the ring.

As far as blind testing goes I suggest, similar to the suggestion tonight in another thread that seems to have been generally accepted, that one should consult the CAM 'marathon' threads from last fall for coverage of the topic, the topic featured large in many of the exchanges after all.

Thanks for the impressions guys ([edit] opps, sorry ... guys and gal) and good to hear you all had fun.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:50 am
Posts: 107
Location: Fort St. John, BC, CA
Thank you Digital. You are a gentleman and a scholar.

If you really want stir things up, perhaps you should skip power cords and go directly to solid state amps or cd players for the next test.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:34 pm
Posts: 2705
Location: St. Catharines, ON, CA
Wow Digital it seems to me that you certainly pulled out as many of the stops as possible to make his test as 'real world' fair as you could.

I have no doubt that attempts will be made to undermine or question your methods but I for one am satisfied with your test. I personally have viewed cables (particularily of the very high end variety) and their supposed sonic personalities with healthy suspicion but I wasn't prepared for quite the result you reported. As I read through your report I must admit that I expected the conclusion to be that there was some difference, however slight and that it would be identifiable by some of your judges. It would then offer to me the opportunity to decide if the difference justified the price of future potential purchases.

I suppose I shouldn't be shocked however as in my very limited experience I have never personably been able to discern even the slightest difference, although my testing has been much less thorough. Sometimes this has left me wondering if my ears must be lacking, or I wasn't listening properly, or whether I just wasn't properly equipped in some way to 'do' this hobby properly .....I feel a little less alone tonight :wink: Thanks!!!

Cheers


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:36 pm
Posts: 34
Location: Markham, ON, CA
Digital - I think that is an excellent report on a very well conceived test, and a damned interesting read to boot! My only comment would be that I would have liked to have seen a wider variety of music used in the testing. I am very impressed with your methodology, and am certainly going to run a duplicate test in my home - it sounds like a blast.

Thanks for the effort!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:31 pm
Posts: 200
Location: Kelowna, BC, CA
I have to say that Digital is a first-rate logistician and a talented writer. The test required rearraging his home to an extent that was not minor, it was carefully thought out and impressively organized. The write-up is concise and even-handed not to mention interesting and enjoyable. As was the whole experience first-hand, listening to great tunes on a fabulous system in a warm and inviting environment with great people. We will do it again and anyone else in the vicinity of the Okanagan is welcome.

I went into this as a skeptic, although with an open mind as my beliefs were based on scientific principles and I had not previously participated first-hand in a controlled test. As the test progressed I decided to include a degree of confidence with my data, 0 being a total guess and 3 being I was sure I got it right. Curiously, on one tune I scored it 2 and, as it turns out, I was correct. I really though I heard a litle more of something, IIRC some high frequency detail, with the Luscombe cables. All my other data were completely wrong so it's likely this was not true. Further, my degree of confidence and accuracy deteriorated markedly as the test progressed.

It's pretty clear in the end no-one in this test was able to tell one cable from another. I will, however, keep an open mind and allow that some people may possess auditory acuity far beyond mine (and the other participants) and be able to discerne such differences. But only if they are willing to back it up with some blind testing session like ours, which is a lot of fun no matter how you approach it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:03 pm
Posts: 1376
Location: Calgary, AB, CA
Digital

Thanks for going through all that effort, nice to see someone that not just talks the talk, but also walks the walk.

By the way, nice place you have there.

Your Pal

Louballoo

_________________
Keeping it Real


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 1:46 pm
Posts: 1598
Location: Fort St. John, BC, CA
@digital
Thanks for a report that encompassing of methodolgy and results.
The results were as I expected, from my own and others experiences. That does not mean a different result could not have swayed my opinion, I just saw very little chance, based on very long discussions and research into the topic, of that to happen.
I come to my scepticism regarding cable sound honestly - by self testing and being critical with myself


Quote:
Further, my degree of confidence and accuracy deteriorated markedly as the test progressed.


That is precisely the experience I had, which finally led to my conclusion to no longer worry about cables, as long as the basic "good" engineering principles in their construction are followed that make cables fit their application, i.e. impedance matched where it matters, and shielded where it counts and then of good quality.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:00 pm
Posts: 429
Location: Waterloo, ON, CA
Now I completely believe there is a Huge difference in sound between Audio Cables, Speaker or IC's.

My good friend had purchased Luscombe 14's a couple months ago that I had auditioned at my house. Utilizing the CD "Best Audiophile Voices #1" on his system the 14's were silky smooth and featured one of the sweetest female voices from his system. Much better than the IXOS 701 IC's he had in before. Anyways he has recently purchased two pairs of Cardas Neutral Reference speaker cables (Arcam A90/p90 biamp on Paradigm Signature S2's) and has allowed around 150 hours of break in.

Well I was over at his place on the weekend listening and low and behold, his system has the most screechiest voicing in the World! Too much sibilance, way bright and very foward. I decided to place his IXOS cables back into his system, and it brought back the nice smooth voice. Now there was a huge advantage with a/b'ing in his system as his Arcam cd192 has Dual outputs, one attached to the CD input (silver Luscombe) and the other to AUX (IXOS silver plated Copper) and allowed me to switch on the fly. Imagine his face when he listened for himself, as he just purchased his Silver RCA's a short time ago and now they sound like junk.

I for one think the ability to switch on the fly is extremely important as the mind doesn't lose it's "memory" during cable switching, and allows you to have instant ability to detech diferences in sound. Now I'm not arguing that you might prefer the $15 over the $335 cable, but I'm sure that there is an audible difference between them. Maybe the Magneplar are "forgiving" and hide out some details, but is no way that those two cables sound the same. imo


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:50 am
Posts: 107
Location: Fort St. John, BC, CA
No offence, Willfi, but I don't know why you wasted your time typing that out. That is exactly the same anecdotal cable test that has been repeated here and on other audio fora a thousand times.

What is novel about Digital's test is that almost all sources of bias were removed.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:01 pm 
Offline
Dealer/Sponsor
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:05 pm
Posts: 1203
Location: Ottawa, ON, CA
My only question is, did you rule out the possibility that the cables could actually sound the same? There isn't much point in A/Bing two things that are the same. At least with 3 or 4 cables you would have greater odds of actually hearing something different.

_________________
Planet of Sound
1194 Bank St., Ottawa, ON


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 97 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group