Canuck Audio Mart

After original Marantz transistors to get original Marantz "warm sound", let's talk about electrolytics...
I hear here and there that after 25 years, most vintage gear like receivers, amplifiers and other units needs electrolytics caps removed and changed for new ones.
What is your "religion" about electrolytics caps?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolytic_capacitor

I have an old tube Bell integrated from 1961 that was still working fine the last time(last year) that I used it.
It's running on original tubes and all caps and resistors.

I think that once you open up Pandora's box you just can't stop until you have upgraded all the internals which isn't a bad thing,but it's no longer a vintage product.

I think that a hot rodded vintage component is the way to go in light of this.

A good basic design with modern improved parts(at a cost)is the best of both worlds, if you can do the work yourself it's even better.

The worst case scenario is a $200.00 receiver that takes out a $2000.00+ pair of speakers .
Second to that is a $200.00 receiver with $2000.00 worth of upgrades.

If the component is from a well respected company (Mac), you like the sound and plan on keeping it, then don't stop with just changing the caps.

If it is just mid fi Japanese or North Am,I would pair it to some cheap disposable speakers and cross my fingers and enjoy until it hits it's last note.

I agree chuck Lee,
I am running two Sansui AU-7500 with 4 pairs of Celestion Ditton and all electrolytics is original from 1975.
Good enough for my old ears....

Quote from Wikipedia:

Since the electrolytes evaporate, design life is most often rated in hours at a set temperature. For example, typically as 2000 hours at 105 degrees Celsius (which is the highest working temperature). Design life doubles for each 10 degrees lower[1], reaching 15 years at 45 degrees. However a great number of capacitors much older than this are still in service. Most Electrolytic capacitors are rated for 85 degrees Celsius maximum.

In more practical terms, this usually translates into a practical lifespan of 20 to 25 years. Luckily, electrolytics usually show outwards signs oif immenent failure such as bulgeing, leaking or hissing. Electrolytics should be considered as consumables, much like oil, gas, belts and tires on a car.

you might get away with leaky dried up caps in a tube design, however when you are talking about solid state the game changes. Tube design is very tough and can take things no solid state can. SS circuits are far more complex and the devices are weak compared to tube, a leaky cap or a shorted/open cap can cause serious problems. I have found 100% open caps in perfectly working tube gear, the same will not apply to solid state design. Go get a esr meter and check your caps with it, it is the only true instrument for testing a capacitor. I have seen hundreds of tested fine capacitance capacitors but they fail the esr test and that is why they were changed and the high esr value is what was causing the problems in the circuits.


I also would like to know where you people buy caps, the caps in your marantz that will need changing can all be had at digikey for about 25-50 bucks. These will be way better caps than original and have higher tolerance to heat. Re-capping is one of the cheapest tweaks/fixes/upgrades you can do. Now if you fall for all the hype about blackgates and the other highend caps you are a sucker lets face it you already like the receiver or amp so why change it with tone control type capacitors Panasonic caps will not add to the sound, they are like your originals just made with much better quality components and the latest design.

Other than protection and support of basic functionality, do electrolytics contribute to the sound in a noticeable way. For example if the current draw from the power supply is small, when the volume is low/moderate, perhaps the old cap may work just fine. Or does it depend on where the cap is used i.e. signal coupling vs power supply.

Wonder if folks can comment on what type of recapping improves overall sound.

That implies that there are 2 kinds of recapping: one that restores the equipment to its orginal specs to compensate for the ageing and degradation of the electrolytic caps, the other to "improve" on the original specifications and sound of the equipment. So, essentially both types of recapping will improve the sound, just that one will attempt to improve on the sound the equipment originally had.

Another automobile analogy: your original 4 season radial tires are worn to the point of no longer having any traction, so either you replace the tires with the same brand, model and size as the originals or you install wide, forged magnesium wheels with wider, ultra high performance summer tires and while you are at it, you change your brakes for fancy carbon fibre ones with racing hubs and also replace the suyspension arms with forged alloy pieces and racing shock absorbers.

Will both of the tire replacements result in an improvement? Of course, only the first will cost you $400 and bring your car back to its original performance and the second will cost you $10,000 and bring your car well beyond its original specs.

What I am proposing is that when you buy any piece of vintage gear, you at least check to see if the tires are bald before attempting to tackle a winding mountain road at high speed and if they show the need for replacement, to at least replace them with new ones. How far you want to go and spend is up to you!

FWIW, I collect vintage gear, tube and SS. I will swap out electrolytics in any gear I buy used over 10 years old. I generally makes a big difference. I have a few Leach amps that were made in the 80's. Before re-capping, they sounded rolled off and would go into clipping (they have clipping indicator lights) at low levels with my Martin Logans connected. Once re-capped, they sounded pretty good, and would drive the ML's without any difficulty.

Paul

Gear that old will most likely need the caps replaced. You see so many pieces on CAM that say "fully serviced". In the past if I ever questioned a piece I ended up recapping the whole thing. You do take chances on old gear with caps that can dry out.

For example, a Marantz 2230 go usualy for around 200.00$ to 300.00$ depend on condition.
Could you expect to buy a Marantz 2230 fully serviced for this price with new caps ???
People are not ready to pay the money that cost for re-capps vintage unit but they want it recapp...

I personally think Marantz gear is overrated and overpriced. Maybe it was weak caps but the sound did not impress me much. The bass seemed fat and bloated. Just my opinion.

Personally I'd buy a 2230 for no more then $150 and then spend another $80 to recap it bringing the total up to $230. As far as the ones advertised here for $200-300 no idea if they are recapped but at that price point I would expect them to be.

Overpriced yes and no, take your 2-300$ and go get anything new to the store and look at what you got....real plastic crapp with no "personnality".
At least, Marantz receivers are very nice to look at and depend the model, pleasant to listen also.
I think that for 500.00$ and less, vintage gear are still a good choice if units are still in shape.

Ok, start with a Marantz 2230 for 150.00$ than spend another 80.00$ for recapp (I am sure is more than that but....) than you have a unit for 230.00$ where is the service now ?
A fully serviced unit in any electronics work shop without recapp is around 150.00$ here in Montreal.......I don't know for the rest of Canada but technician in Quebec are very far than Santa Claus believe me!!!
When I mention 300.00$ and more, I mean exceptionnal condition, engraved, original box and manuals.
Recently, I saw one 2230 engraved with woodcase go for 450.00$ USD on Ebay with leds lamps....

I have done this 100 times or more, 35-40 bucks for all the electrolitics at digikey including shipping. The big chassis mount powersupply can caps have always tested good with my experience and I have never had to change them in marantz receivers. Powersupply and driverboard, tone control boards and phono section is all I ever had to recap in marantz and this was overkill. The caps average between 10cents and 2 dollars for most. I don't know where these numbers are comming from for parts prices. Most of the bad caps were the small value caps like .47uf electrolitic(terrible design) 1uf, 2.2uf, 4.7 and 10uf.

The bigger value caps on the driver and powersupply most always test fine they are just so cheap to replace I figure why not.