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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:25 pm 
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I have a krell ksa200 and just purchoused a fpb600 it sound good but I feel my ksa have a little more bass.i was told that using balance input will give better bass response in the case of the fpb
question my processor lexicon mc 12 have unbalance output only. if I convert my cable to xlr at the amp end and keep rca at the pre amp will I get the balanced benefit, and get better bass response. or it won t change the sound?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:52 pm 
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good question....in my system I vent all unbalanced because I have unbalanced crossover.... if I used unbalanced to balanced cables, I was not getting too much of the "balanced" sound advantage and if I used balanced transformers or line convertors the SQ got down quite a bit...so I just use all unbalanced lines now....


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:55 pm 
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I did what you are suggesting to a Sherborne amp and preferred the result over using the unbalanced input. Whether any real difference existed or not, it did work to further my enjoyment.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:46 pm 
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You will not benefit by converting one end to RCA, that would essentially be unbalancing the line. Unless you are running very long cables from your preamp in a noisy RF/EMI environment, running a balanced line is unnecessary. There should be no noticeable difference in bass response between using single ended or symmetrical circuits.
Nice amps :)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:20 am 
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As usual, there will be many conflicting opinions on this. My favourite systems tend to be all balanced but this requires gear that was truly designed for balanced operation-not a cheap proposition. True balanced gear requires twice the circuitry as each half of the waveform is produced by separate circuits. Generally this gets expensive fast. If there is balanced to unbalanced conversion anywhere in the system, the benefits can quickly be negated as this conversion is generally done with cheap OP Amps. Systems that have their amps next to the speakers and the equipment rack further away on a different wall will likely benefit from balanced operation due to its quieter signal path and noise rejection. Also some have noted that balanced cables tend to have less "sound variation" to them compared to unbalanced cables which can sound quite different from brand to brand. This is likely due to the cancellation effects balanced operation provides. Overall, my preference is generally biased towards balanced systems. (I also vastly prefer the XLR connectors compared to RCA types)

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Last edited by spinaker01 on Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:58 am 
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Did I read somewhere that people say XLR is louder? Has higher voltage or more gain or something to this effect? I am a noob when it comes to XLR as I have no inputs on my devices for this, nor any equipment that can output it, unfortunately. Though, I know it is the better of the two, specifically for longer runs, I find nothing wrong with RCAs of decent quality.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:26 am 
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therealco wrote:
Did I read somewhere that people say XLR is louder? Has higher voltage or more gain or something to this effect? I am a noob when it comes to XLR as I have no inputs on my devices for this, nor any equipment that can output it, unfortunately. Though, I know it is the better of the two, specifically for longer runs, I find nothing wrong with RCAs of decent quality.


That is correct – usually double the voltage (XLR = 4 Volt vs RCA = 2 Volt). Keeping that in mind, in the case of an XLR to RCA conversion either through a cable or adaptor, one could over drive the RCA input. However, this should not be an issue with the OP for he is converting RCA to XLR.

With XLR vs RCA, It is hard to say which is the better for in many cases a truly balanced topology (XLR) was not properly implemented and a XLR connection was only provided for convenience. I am sure Krell has implemented a fully balanced circuit design.

There is no saying the RCA to XLR conversion will give the OP what he is looking for – personally I doubt it. But if you can find cables/adaptors on the cheap, it doesn’t hurt to experiment and draw your own conclusion.

spinaker01 wrote:
Systems that have their amps next to the speakers and the equipment rack further away on a different wall will likely benefit from unbalanced operation due to its quieter signal path and noise rejection.


Think you mean longer runs will benefit from a truly balanced operation due to its quieter signal path and noise rejection? Balanced will usually have a higher Signal to Noise ratio.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:55 am 
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I'd suggest there's not really much advantage to trying to convert from rca to xlr. the pre-amp is only putting out 1-2V in un-balanced mode, so trying to feed that into a balanced input won't make much of a difference. If the new Krell has unbalanced, I'd use it.

If you really want to try rca to xlr, Canada Computers sells conversion cables real cheap (which are actually decent for testing) buy a couple and give it a try.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:33 am 
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Hi,

spinaker01 wrote: 'True balanced gear requires twice the circuitry as each half of the waveform is produced by separate circuits.'

Now this is very interesting because a lot of gear that claims XLR outputs may actually be 'faux XLR outpuits'. The split in the L/R signal and ground may follow the three pin book, but the voltage output and the internal circuit's topology may not be spec. I am thinking here about a lot of inexpensive pro-audio gear for example.

Then sthomas 1049 writes: 'With XLR vs RCA, It is hard to say which is the better for in many cases a truly balanced topology (XLR) was not properly implemented and a XLR connection was only provided for convenience. I am sure Krell has implemented a fully balanced circuit design.'

Are we really really sure about Krell doing that? I have had other pieces with putative balanced outs, probably featured as marketing ploys, but they were not 'truly balanced' at the circuit topology level.

Cheers,
David Neice

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:45 am 
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You could very well be correct. I’m only assuming given Krell’s reputation.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:38 am 
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buybye88 wrote:
Hi,

spinaker01 wrote: 'True balanced gear requires twice the circuitry as each half of the waveform is produced by separate circuits.'

Now this is very interesting because a lot of gear that claims XLR outputs may actually be 'faux XLR outpuits'. The split in the L/R signal and ground may follow the three pin book, but the voltage output and the internal circuit's topology may not be spec. I am thinking here about a lot of inexpensive pro-audio gear for example.

Then sthomas 1049 writes: 'With XLR vs RCA, It is hard to say which is the better for in many cases a truly balanced topology (XLR) was not properly implemented and a XLR connection was only provided for convenience. I am sure Krell has implemented a fully balanced circuit design.'

Are we really really sure about Krell doing that? I have had other pieces with putative balanced outs, probably featured as marketing ploys, but they were not 'truly balanced' at the circuit topology level.

Cheers,
David Neice


Yes the amp in question has fully balanced circuitry


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:05 am 
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kvn63 wrote:

Yes the amp in question has fully balanced circuitry


I which case, the only way to derive any benefit from using the balanced input is by using a source with a balanced output.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:06 am 
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sthomas1049 wrote:
therealco wrote:
Did I read somewhere that people say XLR is louder? Has higher voltage or more gain or something to this effect? I am a noob when it comes to XLR as I have no inputs on my devices for this, nor any equipment that can output it, unfortunately. Though, I know it is the better of the two, specifically for longer runs, I find nothing wrong with RCAs of decent quality.


That is correct – usually double the voltage (XLR = 4 Volt vs RCA = 2 Volt). Keeping that in mind, in the case of an XLR to RCA conversion either through a cable or adaptor, one could over drive the RCA input. However, this should not be an issue with the OP for he is converting RCA to XLR.

With XLR vs RCA, It is hard to say which is the better for in many cases a truly balanced topology (XLR) was not properly implemented and a XLR connection was only provided for convenience. I am sure Krell has implemented a fully balanced circuit design.

There is no saying the RCA to XLR conversion will give the OP what he is looking for – personally I doubt it. But if you can find cables/adaptors on the cheap, it doesn’t hurt to experiment and draw your own conclusion.

spinaker01 wrote:
Systems that have their amps next to the speakers and the equipment rack further away on a different wall will likely benefit from unbalanced operation due to its quieter signal path and noise rejection.


Think you mean longer runs will benefit from a truly balanced operation due to its quieter signal path and noise rejection? Balanced will usually have a higher Signal to Noise ratio.



Oops you are right, thanks for catching that, it was an early morning post.

-- 19 Sep 2017 14:08 --

buybye88 wrote:
Hi,

spinaker01 wrote: 'True balanced gear requires twice the circuitry as each half of the waveform is produced by separate circuits.'

Now this is very interesting because a lot of gear that claims XLR outputs may actually be 'faux XLR outpuits'. The split in the L/R signal and ground may follow the three pin book, but the voltage output and the internal circuit's topology may not be spec. I am thinking here about a lot of inexpensive pro-audio gear for example.

Then sthomas 1049 writes: 'With XLR vs RCA, It is hard to say which is the better for in many cases a truly balanced topology (XLR) was not properly implemented and a XLR connection was only provided for convenience. I am sure Krell has implemented a fully balanced circuit design.'

Are we really really sure about Krell doing that? I have had other pieces with putative balanced outs, probably featured as marketing ploys, but they were not 'truly balanced' at the circuit topology level.

Cheers,
David Neice



I know the majority of the Audio Research equipment is true balanced in/out and I believe Ayre and Boulder are as well.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:11 pm 
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zon001 wrote:
I have a krell ksa200 and just purchoused a fpb600 it sound good but I feel my ksa have a little more bass.i was told that using balance input will give better bass response in the case of the fpb
question my processor lexicon mc 12 have unbalance output only. if I convert my cable to xlr at the amp end and keep rca at the pre amp will I get the balanced benefit, and get better bass response. or it won t change the sound?


From what I understand, bass shouldn't be affected by using either XLR or RCA, you do get a 6db gain with XLR's but that's across the board.. it's basically just louder, there's no specific frequencies affected.

We don't hear bass at the same level as other frequencies, so it may seem like better bass response if it's louder...

Real world bass response is predominantly about speakers and more importantly speaker & room interaction relative to the listening position.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:12 pm 
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There may also be benefit if the balanced input is less noisy.

-- 19 Sep 2017 20:12 --

There may also be benefit if the balanced input is less noisy.


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