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 Post subject: Re: Amp under 350?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:12 pm 
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Location: Fairport Beach (in Pickering), ON, CA
JGP wrote:
Tom_r wrote:
newmusic wrote:
What kind of rear speakers are being employed that require 200 watts plus? My two front/main (full range) 3 way speakers (93db eff. 4ohm) are currently being powered by an 80w power amp that can drive them to near rock concert levels. (no sub required)
Rear speakers do almost nothing and don't even make any bass. Any amp that powers them would likely never be putting out any more than 1 or 2 watts. Although, I guess that might be the equivalent of 200 watts of Chinese built surround receiver power. :lol:

Seriously though ...


Hmmm ... I'm using Alon Model IV (87dB eff going from 8 to 3 ohms) in the front and they'll barely phart with 80 watts!! :lol:


Well Tom, you've answered yourself.
87 db verses 93...
Of course you need more power. Your speakers are inefficient.
Apples and Oranges...

-- 05 Sep 2017 00:36 --

To the "OP", you mentioned "put any more money into" the Nad. I am guessing this implies you've had to put money into it prior? Bit confused because you also called it "trusty"...

Personally, if its been good - and you are happy with it, perhaps a repair is in order.
If not, or you are looking at an upgrade - well, let the shopping begin.

Remember, used on CAM may also equate to issues in the short term...there is no guarantee its going to be better a week from now, month from now, etc.

Rear channel, IMO, is less crucial as its typically a "effects" channel.
Its probably more important your channels are all balanced in level more than anything...

What are you using for a processor?

Plenty of decent Haflers, Parasounds, Nads, on Canuck I guess...but, what do you gain over just servicing this amp?


Yes, I answered myself but the poster seemed to be surprised that someone may use inefficient speaker in a 5.1 setup. BTW, I'm using B&W 804M's for rear speakers. I'm sure they would be more than happy with 200w.

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Collecting vintage tube Pilot (Pilotone) HiFi gear.


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 Post subject: Re: Amp under 350?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:37 am 
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Location: Caledonia, ON, CA
Tom_r wrote:
Hmmm ... I'm using Alon Model IV (87dB eff going from 8 to 3 ohms) in the front and they'll barely phart with 80 watts!! :lol:...
...
...Yes, I answered myself but the poster seemed to be surprised that someone may use inefficient speaker in a 5.1 setup. BTW, I'm using B&W 804M's for rear speakers. I'm sure they would be more than happy with 200w





I think it might have very little to do with efficiency of the speaker and much more to do that the 80w amp you employed was incapable of supplying any current. I have also driven 82db eff apogee panels with my 80 watt amp. No problem there either. Max volume is obviously not as loud as my 93db speaks. But still goes plenty loud enough to rock the house and shake the walls. (I will admit that my 80watt power amp retails for over $6k and weighs more than 50lbs)
If a certain 80watt amp cannot drive 87db speaks, then its not the speaks, its obviously the amp that has the problem. What kind of amp is it?

Unless the op has large full range 3 way floor standers for rear channels then there really is no need for anything more than a couple (real) watts to power them. I have an aqaintance who drives his main speaks, three way 89db eff. floor standers with a 20watt Nad, and they rock the bass pretty well. Wattage rating means almost nothing (this is especially true if your amp is Chinese made mass market brand, surround receiver, which are highly overrated, mostly as a sales ploy to appeal to the audio novice). The main property that determines if an amp will properly power any speaker, regardless of efficiency, is the build quality of the amp. Particularly the weight and design of the power supply and its ability to deliver current. For example, 50watts of Bryston power (Canadian made), will always outperform 200+watts of, big box store, (insert Chinese made mass market brand here,) power.
You collect lower wattage (but heavy build) vintage gear, (Pilotone), so ime quite sure you are fully aware of these facts.

Doesn't the surround processor remove almost all bass from the rear channels anyway? If yes, then you would need only a fraction of a (real) watt to drive any speaker to around 87-93db. 200 (real) watts will never, ever be required. And this is why I was more than a bit surprised that the op was only willing to consider amps with at least 200watts to drive a small speaker that only creates special effects above 80hz.
If however a full range rear speaker is being employed in the rear so as to facilitate audio (music), multichannel. Then all channels of power, including speakers, should be as close to identical as possible, to achieve a proper balance.


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 Post subject: Re: Amp under 350?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:49 am 
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Location: Moncton, New Brunswick, NB, CA
200 watts????....to drive the two rear channels in a 5.1 system????

?To better hear the door slam, the phone ring, the leaves rustle, the wind howl, the dog bark.....ad nauseam??

Get serious,

del Sol


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 Post subject: Re: Amp under 350?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:03 am 
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del Sol wrote:
200 watts????....to drive the two rear channels in a 5.1 system????

?To better hear the door slam, the phone ring, the leaves rustle, the wind howl, the dog bark.....ad nauseam??

Get serious,

del Sol

To be fair, we all have different ways of attacking the problem. I run 4ohm speakers front and back so that equates to 500 watts aside up front from my 4Bsst2 and 200 watts to my centre and surrounds from my Rotel 1075. I've never felt that I'm overdoing it. And it sounds great with five channel concert discs.

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 Post subject: Re: Amp under 350?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:24 pm 
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Location: Caledonia, ON, CA
Yes of course there are many ways to do it. If you have largish 4ohm speaks in the rear then you will need a good amp. Most receivers will not run 4ohms at the rear. Surround concert discs are another matter as well. The sound in the rears is likely more continuous and loud than movies. A good quality, but not necessarily powerful, amp would be an asset.

However a friend of mine has a meter that measures wattage output. And I think more than a few of us would be surprised to watch it in action. For regular listening under 90db the meter barely goes to 1 watt. Loud listening and heavy transient spikes maybe 5-10 watts. Extreme volume, maybe 20-30 watts. To employ the full continuous 250 watts of a Bryston 4B would sound like a jet engine taking off. And most of that sound would be from the rear speakers melting/seizing as the voice coils extended beyond the magnet depth and began bouncing around on the floor.


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 Post subject: Re: Amp under 350?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:51 pm 
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Agreed, it doesn't take much power for volume but I've noticed with a lot of the speakers I've owned : Mani 2's, Model One's, Bryston Middle and Mini T's etc... Even the RC 70's I run in the garage plus the ATC 40's I run in the main system that all of them ended up sounding better at the same volume when driven by a higher powered amp of good quality. Admittedly most of these speakers are not overly sensitive ( between 85 to 88 DB ) with the RC70's being a little better at around 92DB.

And it comes to mind that the higher dampening specs of these amps may be the key factor in their seemingly better control and grip of the above mentioned speakers but all I know is that when I've tried higher quality low powered amps I've always ended up selling them. But that's why we have so many choices, what works for you doesn't have to work for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Amp under 350?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:52 pm 
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Location: Caledonia, ON, CA
KJT1 wrote:
Agreed, it doesn't take much power for volume but I've noticed with a lot of the speakers I've owned : Mani 2's, Model One's, Bryston Middle and Mini T's etc... Even the RC 70's I run in the garage plus the ATC 40's I run in the main system that all of them ended up sounding better at the same volume when driven by a higher powered amp of good quality. Admittedly most of these speakers are not overly sensitive ( between 85 to 88 DB ) with the RC70's being a little better at around 92DB.


Fair enough, but we are talking about rear channels here, that once processed see almost no bass. And therefore, with just mid and high freqs., require very little power to reach high spl's. Plus how many people out there are running speakers of that caliber as rear channels.
Of course you are one of those few who run low eff., full range, fairly expensive, rear channels. I think for the vast majority this is not the case.
However for the ultimate high spl surround experience with multichannel SACD or concert Blu-ray, then perhaps your approach is most likely the way to go.


Last edited by newmusic on Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:31 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Amp under 350?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:59 pm 
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Location: Waterdown, ON, CA
NordicNorm wrote:
Chipmunk1957 wrote:
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649340879-bampk-components-ltd-power-amplifier-st140/
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/ ... amplifier/
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/ ... power-amp/
Heres 3 that would do the job.

None of those meet the OP's specs (i.e. +200 W).

Although good luck in finding an amp for $500 that can deliver clean 200 W.

That being said, here's a Phase Linear 400 for $500: http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649369617-phase-linear-solid-state-stereo-amplifier-2x200w-good-working-condition/


Norm. No offense here bud but have you ever heard a phase 400?
A very solid boat anchor. A 40 year old boat anchor that sounded like a pos the day it was made!


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 Post subject: Re: Amp under 350?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:17 pm 
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Location: Delta, BC, CA
Del Sol, he is serious..... I have a Mark Levinson 331 powering my back wall speakers, a Edge NL10 powering my rear speakers and a BAT 6200 powering my back Ceiling speakers in a 7-4-2 system.... some of us love to have enough power to allow the neighbors to enjoy the special effects also... others use a 50 watt amp that wimps out on a really good barn door being busted open behind you.....


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 Post subject: Re: Amp under 350?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:30 pm 
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Tutone wrote:
Del Sol, he is serious..... I have a Mark Levinson 331 powering my back wall speakers, a Edge NL10 powering my rear speakers and a BAT 6200 powering my back Ceiling speakers in a 7-4-2 system.... some of us love to have enough power to allow the neighbors to enjoy the special effects also... others use a 50 watt amp that wimps out on a really good barn door being busted open behind you.....



That sounds insanely wicked. What's in your 2 channel front end, speaks/amp/pre? If you don't mind me asking.


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 Post subject: Re: Amp under 350?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:29 pm 
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Location: Toronto, ON, CA
The Rears are PSB T6s. In addition to 'retail' material I often feed them theatrical mixes from cinemas. I also occasionally use them for mixing my own 5.1 tracks which leads to full range material being sent to my rears before my final mix down plugin performs bass management at bounce time. So I have found that the more power the better.

I describe my NAD 2600 as trusty because, in the state given to me, being warned of a faulty input board (intermittent issues), I received it for almost no money and after a $150 repair I got 4 or 5 years of use out of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Amp under 350?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:37 pm 
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Location: Delta, BC, CA
Front speakers are Martin Logan Summits with a Plinius SA100Mklll, Center is a Martin Logan stage with a Mono Krell FPB250, the Stereo uses the same Martin Logan Summits with two Modwright 150SE in mono, pre-amp is a BAT52SE, for the home theater processor I am using a Anthem, strictly for processing as it does Dolby Atmos....My Gallary has a outdated picture of a Plinius Taturo pre-amp in the system but most of the picture is relevant..


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 Post subject: Re: Amp under 350?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:28 am 
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ecclectique wrote:
NordicNorm wrote:
Chipmunk1957 wrote:
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649340879-bampk-components-ltd-power-amplifier-st140/
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/ ... amplifier/
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/ ... power-amp/
Heres 3 that would do the job.

None of those meet the OP's specs (i.e. +200 W).

Although good luck in finding an amp for $500 that can deliver clean 200 W.

That being said, here's a Phase Linear 400 for $500: http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649369617-phase-linear-solid-state-stereo-amplifier-2x200w-good-working-condition/


Norm. No offense here bud but have you ever heard a phase 400?
A very solid boat anchor. A 40 year old boat anchor that sounded like a pos the day it was made!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Amp under 350?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:13 am 
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Location: Mississauga, ON, CA
Unless your room size is stadium size, even with low efficiency surround speakers it's hard to imagine needing 200+ watts surround amp...


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 Post subject: Re: Amp under 350?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:03 am 
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Posts: 116
Location: Leduc, AB, CA
"Crackling" usually means a "dirty" "pot" or potentiometer, i.e., something like a volume control. They get a build-up of oxidation between the contacts and the easiest solution is to simply turn the dial back and forth a half dozen times, thereby wiping the contacts clean. Unused pots are generally the cause, unless you never change your volume setting and simply never turn your system off. Just turn the NAD off and move every control feature back and forth from end to end at least 5 or 6 times. Then power up and check for the crackling again. Oxidation can also build up in pots that are regularly used; the most common occurrence is in volume controls that may be moved only slightly for fine tuning, and that is how the problem is usually discovered. A worn pot can also be the culprit, but getting it replaced is a lot less expensive than buying a new unit. There are also contact cleaners available to use on non-sealed pots. Good Luck!


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