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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:35 am 
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Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Hi all.

I have an updated set of Proac Response 3's.
Happy with them for sure.

I am currently driving them with a NAD 2400 THX.
I am in the midst of looking to upgrade from the NAD mainly because (in my opinion) it sounds good but (a) I think as I turn it up it doesn't have the control over the woofers that it should have and (b) at louder volumes it sounds "stressy"?

I am looking at all my options and am thinking of going for two amps (that are the same of course).

So. I am wondering,,,would it be best to bi-amp (one amp to drive the tweeters) (kinda seems like a waste) and one to drive the twin 6.5 inch woofers,,,,,OR,,,,,,one amp to drive the left cabinet and one to drive the right?

After all, as long as one is using a well designed amplifier is it not better to have as much power as possible under any and all conditions? (hence thinking of using one amp for left speaker and one amp for the right. Kinda like,, chainsaws? If one is regularly going to be cutting tree branches,,,,even if the basic model is built to do it, it is better to buy one with more horse power,,,,,less stress on the chainsaw and one is not always overdriving the chain saw?? (bad example I know but you probably get the idea).

Anyways, for those who have time to toss in there two cents, your thoughts are much appreciated.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:55 pm 
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Location: Niagara Falls, ON, CA
I own Linn equipment and for bi-amping they recommend 1 amp for bass and the other for treble. Whichever way you go it should make a noticeable difference to a single amp.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:04 pm 
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you might as well go with 2 ss monoblocs and run them bottom left - bottom right, and then 2 tube monoblocs one for each top :)


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:26 pm 
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If you bi amp the NAD amps vertically, you'll get better channel separation.

The NAD amps probably have a mono power supply, so if you wire them vertically
you'll probably get better bass control.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:26 pm 
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Monoblocks, definitely monoblocks!

Depending on your budget, you have a lot of choices but these amps just came up on CAM:

VTL 185 $4,000: http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649336527-vtl-185-mono-blocks/
- EL34 tubes
- 120 Watts (Class A)
- XLR & RCA outputs

These would drive your Proac's no problem.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:33 pm 
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To get an idea of what bi-amping might do for you, connect your NAD to one speaker only, with one channel for the bottom end and the other for the highs. It won't be stereo, but you might get a better idea if sticking with the same power output will give you the improvement you want. I, for one, do not favour high-power amps, but in your room,with your setup, and at your desired listening level, you may need lots of power.

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/ ... power-amp/

Just for fun, I got an amp like this a month ago. Same power as your NAD, but beefy dual transformers, real heatsinks (not the bent sheet metal that NAD employs, to keep down costs), and MOSFET output devices. These fly under the radar - they are excellent amps for little money. Find yourself a couple, bi-amp your speakers, and don't tell your audio-buddies what they cost you. They'll be impressed by the sound quality.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:29 pm 
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Uunderhill wrote:
If you bi amp the NAD amps vertically, you'll get better channel separation.

The NAD amps probably have a mono power supply, so if you wire them vertically
you'll probably get better bass control.



This.....^^^

Best way to do it.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:22 pm 
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Thank you all for your thoughts and ideas.
I agree that "if" I keep the NAD and get another of the same model number, using one for the left speaker and one for the right is the best way to go.

I am still considering upgrading to a better amp as well. I am in no hurry.

Thank you all again.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:03 pm 
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I agree that vertical biamping is the way to go here. As you're dealing with a 2-way system, voicing the mid-range crossover region will be more seamless if the amps are identical. Ordinarily, a higher power amp is desirable for the bass, but in this case lifting the bass duty from one channel effectively doubles the power supply capacity to the bass channel, which should improve cone handling during large excursions.

As has already been mentioned, separation will improve as well but I believe this isn't where the greatest benefit lies. If you were to buy a second identical amp, the decision to go vertical or horizontal might depend more on wiring and placement decisions with an eye to keeping signal paths short.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:45 pm 
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i agree with Rips analysis, but I would add, though we dont know what the rest of your gear is, your speakers way outclass your amp. way way way. and adding another of those wont fix it.

! good amp beats two lesser ones, if operated within their envelope. im not sure what your budget is but those speakers are very very good and not cheap. To realize the value of that purchase youll need to cough up some dollars for a good amp, but youll be very happy you did. (to the extent your upstream gear is up to it, and all is well matched.)

good luck.

im not sure of your budget but many not too expensive choices come to mind. frankly a bryston 2blp might be very good, (its excellent, though your speakers can do with better) and is only 500 or so. many choices, old exposure gear maybe, an old threshold or forte. a well sorted and appropriately modded dynaco 70 possibly, better still a cary rocket 88, or old conrad johnson stuff, tube or ss. ati has some options, you could build a pass f5/b1 for not much if you are handy, if your power needs arent ridiculous. old sim amps look blah but are good, powerful and cheap. (a 4070 looks good too, and if the sound suits you the quality is excellent)

a classe dr2 would be incredible, about a grand if you can find one. (dont let the rating fool you, it would tow your house if you could put wheels on it) easier to source, a classe 10, decent and cheap, around 550. or a 201, more money but very good. meridian amps used to be dirt cheap used, the company is legend, i have little experience with them though.


if your preamp is not up to it, that is if its closer to the nad than to the proacs, youll want to get one of those too. so integrateds may offer a cheaper quality solution (ditto your upstream stuff, which is where youd then want to start)


audiomat arpege if you have a few bucks, those were a great deal used for along time, seem to be drying up. probably as good as you can get. ) a yba integre, Blue circle stuff is superb and used to be way undervalued used. the odd vecteur shows up and is reported to be good. the conrad johnson integrated, or audioresearch. classe 151, or older ones,



lots of choices. the point is though that id skip an intermediate upgrade for another 2600 and save for a bigger jump, its only 500 to a grand away and would make a huge huge difference, way better than youd get with what you are considering.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:22 am 
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I still say 2 solid state mono blocs and 2 tube mono blocs in horizontal configuration 8)


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:27 am 
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Wow, lots of great input, thanks to all

-- 02 Mar 2017 12:35 --

phowell1

Great specific ideas. Thank you.

At the moment along with the Proac's (and the NAD) I have a decent Dual table (which I will upgrade soon) , and am for now using a Mac Book for CD's and downloads,,,,soon I will be getting a D/A converter to hook up to the Mac Book,,,,,,my pre amp is an Alchemist Forseti APD21A Pre Amp (outboard power supply), the Tim Di Paravicini model. (I have posted a few pics in case you are unfamiliar with it).

After some thought I have indeed decided to sell the NAD and spend somewhere around $1000 to $1500 on a "used" power amp. Now that you know my pre, any specific suggestions would be appreciated though not expected,,,,your suggestions so far are appreciated.


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462252-alchemist_forseti_apd_21a_signature_series_tim_paravacini.jpg
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:20 am 
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Given your preamp, the obvious choice would be its mate - an Alchemist Forseti APD20A MkII SS amp. Finding one may be easier said than done, however!?

Here are its specs: http://www.alchemisthifi.info/ranges/forseti/alchemist_forseti_apd20a_mkii_signature_power_amplifier.htm

A used one would fit your budget (again, if you can find one).

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:06 pm 
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I'm of the opinion that bi-amping, as with bi-wiring, is an improvement no matter what the amp's build quality or capability is. Only distinction becomes the steeper price tag with using better amps.

I don't mean to suggest that two lesser amps will outperform one better one.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:05 pm 
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Having the luxury of several stereo and mono block amplifiers, I can suggest based on my own experience.
Less cross-talk and therefore best results will be achieved with one amplifier driving one side whether it be mono or stereo. Mono blocks have slightly better separation than stereo amplifiers, even if the stereo amp has discreet power supplies for each side. This decision usually comes down to money.

I do recommend bi-wiring over bi-amping simply because it takes gain and possibly phasing issues out of the mix. It is also much cheaper and uses less AC from the wall to achieve essentially the same thing. Bi-wired cables are also cheaper than two pair.

I would not make any final judgements and decisions until the ProAcs are well worked in. ( 250-300 hours)
This goes for any new speaker cabling as well.

Finally, as you may know, solid-state amplifiers generally exhibit much better control of low bass. The have a much higher dampening factor and slew rate so if bass is what you live for then tube amps may not be the way to go. There are a few tubed amplifiers that do exhibit great bass control and slam but they are expensive.

However way you proceed, do not mix amplifier types or models unless you like to fiddle. I feel this would be a recipe for headaches.

Good luck.


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