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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:23 pm 
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Location: Sidney, BC, CA
8) I'm one of many who have bought and tried many different types of speakers and with out making a ridiculous list I'll get right to the point , I'm interested in a set of full range speakers for a at home install , now they could be Lowthers or the likes but I don't find a lot of success story's about this kind of project . Has anyone else been truly happy with a set of full range and the truth is they must be as the return rate of one company was about 3% , that's unreal ! So I have some nicely made cabinets that came fully operational at a very low price and the cabinets are well made from Canada here's where I'm going to take some flack , they are Nuance , they are large pristine rock solid cabinets . The speakers are not special and I'm not interested in that or the flack so please don't add anything negative as it has all bin said before . The most obvious thing about these are the fact that they were indeed over priced and people thought they were getting something more , so don't laugh at them we all have made some type of mistake we don't Bragg about. Ok has any of you put a good speaker into a box and tuned it with a degree of happiness and would recommend this . I find a lot of higherend speakers when there is a failure the replacement speaker is not that expensive so rather than pay all the way down the line I want to put nice full range in a good box and see what I get . The cabinets have the sub compartment well blocked off from the main drivers so that's a good thing , leave the tweeter where it is and resize the main driver hole if necessary . Tuning a port has become a short stop on the internet for the math for basic ports . So why not , what have you done like this and were you happy , do you have any advice , do you have a favourite speaker , have you bought one like this . I have had or have many speakers big and small and would like to go away from big amps to smaller more efficient types of speakers . 15 watts or less amps with a goal of less than one watt at a listening level . I'm going to be getting rid off three P2201 amp but one side is gone in one so it's 2 & 1/2 amps . I ran them at 60% volume and to Allison Acoustic c-9 & cd-9 . These are 4 ohm speakers and sound complete, they don't care where in the room you put them and even up to the wall . The drivers for the mid & highs are made in reverse and this approach seems to give more realism to my music . My personal race to get big amp is over but I will say having power present after a preamp is a nice thing but I want your input to low power , highly efficient speakers not the wows of recking a good cabinet and help me turn it into something good . Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge or interests


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:46 pm 
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Never done anything like what your discussing but if I where to attempt it I wouldn't leave the tweeter where it is. I'd remove it and seal the hole with a cut to fit piece of whatever the baffle is made of. Other than that I'll leave the suggestions and advice to people who know far more than I do.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:48 pm 
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Location: Sidney, BC, CA
Thanks ! That's a valid point but tweeter is air tight to the inside and I did think of just cutting the wire so to speaker , it is a perfect fit and it's not very deep , it's been a thought for a long time . If an 8"" comes out and an 8" goes in the port size might need to altered . The cabinets are about 75lbs and this also leaves the full range at a good height of the floor . Thanks for your input and look forward to anything you have to add . Some I have looked at are Classic 8 neodymium, no particular reason and they have many options . I figure it's a party of one not requiring a lot of volume but some of those are so efficient they will get loud quick. Some get way down in HZ and the subs in the bottom would remain unused ? I could put some type of patch on if it works out after testing it . There is a lot more of these than I though and found them to be quite popular. In looking around I see many are doing what Tannoy has been doing for years but these are truly different and I do want to do this . I'm going to be playing vinyl but mostly compressed music through a Dac . Thank very much , what speakers do you like to hear ?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:29 pm 
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Location: toronto, ON, CA
Find suggested designs for whatever driver you choose. You'll need to choose a driver that wants that size of box -- no horn loading, of other internal labyrinths. The design should come with a crossover that takes the dimensions of the front baffle into account.

If the front baffle you have is a different size from the suggested design, you will have some issues with frequency response.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:02 pm 
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Location: New Westminster, BC, CA
Just because it doesn't need a crossover doesn't mean that it doesn't need contouring.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:41 am 
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Location: Leduc, AB, CA
You're putting the cart before the horse here. When speakers are designed, the raw units are chosen based upon system requirements and then the crossovers and enclosures are designed to meet the goals of the design. This process requires many hours of fine tuning. Swapping out the drivers completely upsets the whole process.

Typically, when KEF sold the KEF-kits, they came with drivers and the appropriate crossovers and a leaflet telling the builder what size the enclosure should be for the best result. Deviations of more than 10% were strongly discouraged. There are so many parameters involved here, including the crossover frequencies and slopes, that your best bet for using the enclosures is getting hold of replacement Nuance drivers. If this project is to reach a usable outcome, you should try to get hold of any pamphlets regarding the design of your driver/crossover combination and, hopefully, you will find the suggested enclosure design and how to re-size the empty cabinets you have. If the sizing differs more than 10%, your chances of success are absolutely minimal. At this point, we don't even know if the crossover you have was chosen by a dedicated speaker designer, or simply chosen by a novice buying parts off a supplier's shelves.

My "guess" is that your drivers were intended to get extra bass out of a smaller enclosure and this was accomplished by using shallow slopes to allow a hump in the response at the crossover point between the woofer and mid-range units. If this is the case, you could try fitting a brace with slots or half inch size holes on 1 inch centres and play with the height and slope of the brace, which should disrupt the bass wave inside the enclosure and hopefully dampen the bass output. I would also suggest completely filling the enclosure with with batting and closing the ports. I'm not sure if the mid-range unit is openly exposed to the bass unit here, but, if it is, you should seal them off from one another, and this would be my very first step.

You sound very frustrated, but, really, this is the sort of thing I would have attempted only if I got everything for free and had an abundance of curiosity and free time. Necessity is the mother of invention and I wish you well. I don't think you would be well advised on spending more than 20 extra dollars to complete the "voicing" of this project. Try to look at it as a learning experience and do lots of reading about speaker design. You are really situated between a rock and a hard place, but, hopefully, you may happen upon a useable result. Best wishes.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:08 am 
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Location: Stratford, ON, CA
Hi,

I will try to stay on topic - but the topic you raise is huge.

1) Creating good sound from a 'full-range' driver is an even trickier proposition than designing a two-way. It looks simple - build a box, stick in the driver, add some connectors and ta-da. But you are always working within the outer limits of any physics that determines audio performance. A detailed explanation for this would be a hundred pages long.

2) One poster above said if you have unlimited time and patience, then certainly experiment, but you will tire of this quickly because you have so much prior experience listening to other, probably well designed, speakers.

3) If I had your Nuance boxes I would just replace any defective parts or drivers with replacements or substitutes, if need be, and sell them on - even if you love their cabinets. Moving them down the road to become a satisfactory full range driver cabinet would require a heroic DIY effort.

4) But having said that I certainly would encourage you to tackle a single range driver DIY build. The Internet abounds in designs, and the standard Lowther enclosures are a good place to start. As well, the Alpair Pencil designs are worth the effort. These designs have been pre-engineered and tested and then built and enjoyed by audiophiles world-wide. It seems you want to try this path - so why not do it the easier way?

5) But why choose this path at all? Well, I can tell you this. About 15 years ago I walked into the old Parts Connection one day, at the back of the former Sonic Frontiers, to buy some tubes and wire. As I was approaching the counter my ears were being dragged towards some speakers that were playing Patricia Barber. So I had a look and they were tall slim enclosures, folded horns really, made out of 3/4" MDF, and using 4 1/2" Jordan JX92 full range drivers. They were being driven by an Audio Note 300B single ended kit amp. I had my eldest daughter with me and she just said, 'they sound incredible' and she was right - they did. One of the most realistic speakers on voice I have ever heard; equal to the Quad ESL57. Turns out they were built by the guy on the counter and we exchanged views. I had been in England a few years earlier and had visited the cottage where the guy lived who made the Beauhorns, a six foot tall Lowther design, with furniture grade finish and that only sold on a one-off bespoke basis. They didn't really do it for me (except as furniture) but those MDF boxes that this young guy built were the real deal. He sketched out for me the dimensions on a piece of paper but I never built a pair.

6) If you are serious about building and if you PM me I will send you a photo-copy of the plans published in 'Sound Practices' many years ago for a Lowther single driver horn design that was designed by a German guy and many samples were built around the world. The article was written by a Canadian who built a pair and said that after they finished them the Reference 3a speakers they previously loved were never turned on again. They require some basic wood working skills because labyrinth horns (for bass response) are complicated but I know that the guy who owned Falcon Audio up in Thornhill built a pair.

7) As to whether this path will be your last path - that is hard to say. The itch seems to be kind of a forever thing.

Cheers,
David Neice

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:17 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 20, 2011 12:15 pm
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Location: toronto, ON, CA
take a look at some of the designs on frugalphile for the alpair drivers. The box dimensions are *very* precise.b


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:25 am 
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Location: Brampton, ON, CA
I think it is worth trying. Usually DIY is over-the-top with better drivers, better inductors and better capacitors than you will see in a commercial design. The box often may be better built but depending on wood working skills might be lacking compared to commercial designs. If you have a box that is expendable, then you might get lucky. There are also pretty good odds you will move on from this project and the box will be thrown away.

A full range driver is full of compromises (but so is everything) and accuracy is probably not it's strong point. What it offers in return is appreciated by it's fans and worth experiencing to see if it is for you (imo). You can play around with different filters but you may find that even though filters may give you a 'flatter' response, the sound is also 'flat' and 'lifeless'.

Make sure the driver you are using is suitable for the volume of box you have. Using the Theil and Small parameters you can use free software online to get the port roughly to the length you need. Using pieces of pipe or tubing try various sizes longer and shorter to see how they impact the bass at your listening position. Use your ears to listen and get familiar and decide on the final lengths. Adjust the damping material in the box more or less also based on listening.

Keep in mind, there is very little resale in a diy speaker. If you can get good used drivers, it may be the way to go. These types of drivers also often need a lot of break-in, so if you get them used, they may likely sound how they are supposed to. You are also getting an education and learning but it does cost time and money. I would lean to sticking with proven designs and then tweak the port length and stuffing to suit your preference and room.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:41 am 
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Location: Sidney, BC, CA
The Ideas here are very educational and interesting and I appreciate the responses that I didn't expect and it's a case of trial and error in everyone . The bass was not a concern in my project so much as the accuracy of reproduction? The kind of music I enjoy is all over the place and gearing towards an all round speaker is my goal . The info received has opened doors I never knocked on before ( thanks ) so with an open mind I will make notes of all points made but the folded horn has sparked me while I read your replys and learn about the contouring and kits available, plans of different builds . I will say after owning many different speakers and very few highend I do believe in one thing that is part of my journey is hit and miss , I have had some speakers that where very nice to hear had little to offer a friend being critical so I guess this is why they are so different. In my living room I tried many just to simply hear the tv and a friend gave me a small set off full range speakers from the 60's or 70's and at low volume it's amazing and for music I've been trying so many variations . Cambridge receiver at the tv . There are some of you I am trying to pm and haven't figured out how , and your thinking ( he's building a set of speakers ) I have enough skills to do the job but this is a new program to me .
So , folded horn is a contender for a build this winter and as for the original set to be modified will likely go forward just to learn . I made a sub woofer for a car onece and tuned the cabinet as per the instructions and it's sounded great and it was to loud for what I wanted and it still sits in a corner unused. I just like doing it and will apply that to my need for something better than I have . The big amplifiers are going , I'm moving into a smaller room and have carpets / a roll of Acoustic foam for the ceiling, I am prepared to do this but as one of you said " you have put the cart before the horse " I get it now . I will heed your warnings, I will apply some of your knowledge and experience and very good points and suggestions. I will be PM'ing some of you and thanks to all , plans are likely being redirected towards the folded horn . A smaller space to fill will make it easier for sizing , the room is ready for absorbing sounds from bouncing around , I'm having so much fun with gear in general and do have one CD player I will keep and that's a MCD7808, I don't use the DAC downstream from this . Thanks very much , I'm very excited and have so much to read .


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:41 pm 
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Location: Cobourg, ON, CA
A folded horn with a Fostex driver will blow you away. You'll love them. You will learn how to build notch filters to tweak them over time and with learning. You can use cheaper single ended amps with more bang for the buck, most systems costing 10 times more won't be as engaging.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:09 pm 
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Location: Milton, ON, CA
Another vote for fostex


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:53 pm 
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Thank you all , the project has been replaced with a folded horn project . Although there may be some improvements with the original project I'm now convinced a folded horn is the right thing to do . It's amazing to me how helpful you all are , thank you so much .


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:45 am 
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The FE206En is a very good driver with a fairly big following. Lots of info online on just about any or every aspect of the build. A pair is fairly inexpensive, and can be purchased at solen.ca etc... to avoid the us duty etc...

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:32 pm 
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Location: Victoria, BC, CA
Two Channel 57,

I am a full-range fanatic… and a designer of such. The Pensil (there are actually lots of them), are designed by our cohort in Yorkshire UK. Between us we likely have over a 100 designs in the DIY space.

The Fostex FExx6 series is popular, need a biggish horn, and trade smoothness for efficiency. We can talk about those. We tend to prefer (some) or the FFxx5wk series. We can talk because you are in Sidney and i am in the Highlands. You can come visit (i’m homebound since i came out of a long stay at the Royal Jubilee) and listen to some stuff instead of guessing what they sound like from what people say.

It you want to rework your Nuance boxes we can talk options. You’ll need to know the internal volume. Pictures would help too.

We have recycled old boxes, but most get burned because they are not up to our standards.

dave

You can pick my email off one of the websites in my signature.

-- 28 Sep 2017 23:35 --

[quote="RoyHifi”]FE206En… and can be purchased at solen.ca etc... to avoid the us duty etc...[/quote]

No duty on them from Madisound, just higher postage. And via USPS shipping is cheapest, and they often sneak thru customs. If they do get stopped, GST, maybe PST and a $10 fee.

dave

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