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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:27 pm 
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Location: Mississauga, ON, CA
ADCO wrote:
MOON wrote:
IMO a single sub is a fools errand.


I totally agree. Once you hear 2 subs over a single sub, there's no going back.

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I dunno... think it is equipment specific.

I used to use 2 Rel G1's with my Acoustic Zen Crescendo II's and now I have sold one off. The AZ's are flat down to close to 22hz so I cross the single Rel in at 35Hz and it takes away any room nodes...no need for stereo sub in this case.

But, I do believe their is a generalized argument for stereo or multiple mono subs .


I agree. In my previous house I had a dedicated sealed room for listening to music, around 15 x 30, and a single 12" HSU sounded great -- after configuring it properly. Now that we're in an 'open concept' modern house, where the basement staircase opens all the way up to 2 floors above and is around 1600 sq ft, a single sub just sounds very directional, boomy. I just added a second 12" HSU (used), and after playing with positioning - it's a far better improvement, even at low listening levels.

Room and sub placement play a huge role.


Last edited by Justin_Toronto on Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:02 pm 
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Yes, though this changes as I tweak. Recently I have been able to set the bass of my system where I want it (in 2.0) but previously had some issues with lack of bass so always ran the sub (search for the thread "Bass Frustrations").

I have my processor set so that I can quickly change between 2.0/2.1/4.1/5.1 depending on type of music and/or mood. I was very enthusiastic about 2.1 until a week ago when I FINALLY figured out the way my processor needs to set up for 2.0 ... since then I've been mostly playing back stereo. So, it's something fluid for me.

It also depends on speaker type ... I'm using large tower speakers, with stand mounts I'd be listening to a lot of 2.1, I think ...

One thing to keep in mind is that as you emphasize one part of the spectrum (bass) other parts will inevitably recede (midrange, treble).


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:00 am 
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ADCO wrote:
MOON wrote:
IMO a single sub is a fools errand.


I totally agree. Once you hear 2 subs over a single sub, there's no going back.


Quote:
I dunno... think it is equipment specific.

I used to use 2 Rel G1's with my Acoustic Zen Crescendo II's and now I have sold one off. The AZ's are flat down to close to 22hz so I cross the single Rel in at 35Hz and it takes away any room nodes...no need for stereo sub in this case.

But, I do believe their is a generalized argument for stereo or multiple mono subs .



+1 I too went from 2 subs back to one. All depends on the room and the equipment used.

-- 12 Mar 2018 12:02 --

Tangram wrote:
I have always listened in a 2.1 speaker configuration but last night when I was listening to some largely acoustic music (old Bruce Cockburn) I switched the sub off to compare 2.0 with 2.1. Given the nature of the music, there wasn’t a lot of low frequency information and to my pleasant surprise, I felt that the mids were more pleasing (detail and dynamics). The overall presentation was an improvement as it was more engaging. Is this typical? Is my sub correctly set up? Does anyone use their sub selectively, depending on the music? I was in the camp that a well-integrated sub will always be beneficial (and I thought mine was well integrated) but now I’m not so sure.

Focal Electra 1008 be’s
JL Audio E110 sub, crossed over at 80 hz.

Thanks!


Yep, I am the same way. Some music just sounds better without.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:31 am 
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Location: Calgary, AB, CA
I have 2 subwoofers (2 x 8" sealed each box) in different locations in my listening room (11' x 15'), one on the long wall near the corner, one in the middle of the short wall. I run these subs with an Antimode 2.0 and McCormack DNA-250. The Antimode 2.0 gives me a ton of flexibility (and a remote control) for different music, mixes and speakers, and the DNA-250 gives a nice grip on the drivers.

Typically I use the subwoofers to support my Magnepan MG1.6 (or MG12 depending), as neither has much under 40Hz (50Hz). Once dialed in the results are really satisfying and I don't 'hear' the subs at all, but it took some experimenting. As far as flexibility goes, at the moment I have the subs crossed over at 250Hz, supporting high quality stand mount speakers that have a passive high pass (good quality DIY) at the same frequency - this is an fun and interesting experiment to satisfy my lust for a medium sized 3-way system that I can't afford!

So, based on my experience I would think that dedicated subs with plate amps would be kind of limiting in what you can do, unless the plate amps have full function DSP on board, like some of the new ones have. That gets kind of expensive for good DSP plate amps however. Bottom line, I don't think you can do the bottom octave right without spending some money AND having 2 subs that you can move around the room. Personally, my preference over time has been towards quality sealed box implementations and away from ported, but that could be I just haven't heard enough properly implemented ported subs or mains.

A comment from a recording engineering friend was that the properly implemented subs in my system produced a very beneficial 'psychoacoustic' effect. You can hear the difference switching the subs on and off and it is subtle, but a good recording with the subs on has a much more realistic scale to it.

-- 12 Mar 2018 18:37 --

mission66 wrote:
I have 2 subwoofers (2 x 8" sealed each box) in different locations in my listening room (11' x 15'), one on the long wall near the corner, one in the middle of the short wall. I run these subs with an Antimode 2.0 and McCormack DNA-250. The Antimode 2.0 gives me a ton of flexibility (and a remote control) for different music, mixes and speakers, and the DNA-250 gives a nice grip on the drivers.

Typically I use the subwoofers to support my Magnepan MG1.6 (or MG12 depending), as neither has much under 40Hz (50Hz). Once dialed in the results are really satisfying and I don't 'hear' the subs at all, but it took some experimenting. As far as flexibility goes, at the moment I have the subs crossed over at 250Hz, supporting high quality stand mount speakers that have a passive high pass (good quality DIY) at the same frequency - this is an fun and interesting experiment to satisfy my lust for a medium sized 3-way system that I can't afford!

So, based on my experience I would think that dedicated subs with plate amps would be kind of limiting in what you can do, unless the plate amps have full function DSP on board, like some of the new ones have. That gets kind of expensive for good DSP plate amps however. Bottom line, I don't think you can do the bottom octave right without spending some money AND having 2 subs that you can move around the room. Personally, my preference over time has been towards quality sealed box implementations and away from ported, but that could be I just haven't heard enough properly implemented ported subs or mains.

A comment from a recording engineering friend was that the properly implemented subs in my system produced a very beneficial 'psychoacoustic' effect. You can hear the difference switching the subs on and off and it is subtle, but a good recording with the subs on has a much more realistic scale to it.


I got carried away - back to the nature of the thread I sometimes turn up the subs, sometimes turn them down, sometimes turn them off. Maybe some day i will be 'set and forget', but that is not me right now. Cheers!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:26 am 
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In my basement combined 2 channel and HT I have 2 sub settings.

I ran the auto setup (Marantz receiver) and use that sub setting for music. For movies I goose it a bit on the actual sub amp (vs changing the preamp level on the Marantz).

I find that added boom for movies is great, but it can be too much for music.

Just my approach!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:57 am 
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Recording engineers often use small monitors to mix because low bass distracts their attention from the balance of everything else. Only after the mix is done do they switch on a sub to check the mix out.

In my own system, I use very old (38 yr) passive PSB subs, their originals, with variable high and low pass settings. Having 2, reduced the distortion on very low bass passages in the pipe organ music I so often play.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:36 am 
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Location: Toronto, ON, CA
I have floor standers that play down to 35hrz, I still use two e110 subs for 2 channel. I have mine crossed over at 60hrz. I originally tried 80 as highly recommended and found to be too high. I also have my subs on issoteck sub stands that I’m very happy with.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:42 am 
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Terry Stephens wrote:
I have floor standers that play down to 35hrz, I still use two e110 subs for 2 channel. I have mine crossed over at 60hrz. I originally tried 80 as highly recommended and found to be too high. I also have my subs on issoteck sub stands that I’m very happy with.



+1

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:35 am 
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IME, most subs are crossed over too high with their respective gain set too high in relation to the mains. When you have a sub(s) properly integrated, it rarely draws attention to itself.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:54 am 
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I didn't see that the OP is using a HT receiver, with a subwoofer output, but a questionable LF crossover in a powered sub can be avoided by setting the crossover in the sub to its highest level (maybe 250 Hz) and setting the sub crossover in the receiver/processor at that desired point.

I've always understood that the advantage of having multiple subs is the smoothing of bass response in the room, not the quantity of bass. The comments from those with multiple, properly set up subs seem to bear that out; more even bass at a lower volume level.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:27 am 
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Davechoc wrote:


I've always understood that the advantage of having multiple subs is the smoothing of bass response in the room, not the quantity of bass. The comments from those with multiple, properly set up subs seem to bear that out; more even bass at a lower volume level.


Possibly the only ironclad fact in our entire hobby.

FTR bass distribution doesn't muddy the mid's and high's....it allows them to shine with stunning clarity.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:33 am 
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+ 1

That's exactly correct Marc.... perhaps the most under understood point to the whole subwoofer argument no matter what direction you take to even out bass response


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:03 pm 
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My mains are Maggie 1.6qrs and my sub is an ACi Titan XL. ACI went out of business some time ago (the owner wrapped it up - not a bankruptcy) but these were recommended as a good match with the Maggies.

My int amp has a bi amp setting so I have settled for some years on a 40hz cutoff - so I guess that's selective. The Maggies are supposed to be down 3db at 40hz. I also have the subwoofer amp volume set very low. Even though the 1.6s are kind of inefficient it seems work fine and just fills in the very deep bass though I guess there will be some contribution up to hz or so. I had previously tried a variety of cutoffs (200, 100, 80, 60) with my current and a previous amps. While the higher cutoffs often adds a lot balls or punch I basically prefer the current setup which may reflect my preference for classical, jazz and other acoustic music.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:15 am 
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+1 - 80hz is probably too high for those Focals. I'd turn the xover all the way down and see where you can get that little bit of extra bass definition without smearing the low/mids. Probably around 30-40 hz would do it.

Having said that, yeah I have 2 subs, yeah I can turn them on and off easily in my second system and for music I have them crossed over at 40 hz.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:54 am 
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The specs on your speakers shows they cut off at 46Hz. Placing your sub cross over around 50hz would get rid of lower mid range / upper bass bloat, which is consistent with what you described you heard, when you turned the sub off on Bruce Cockburn (who prob does not have much going on at 46 hz)


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