Canuck Audio Mart Hifi and Audio ForumCanuck Audio Mart Hifi and Audio Forum
It is currently Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:59 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:06 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:16 am
Posts: 330
Location: Hamilton, ON, CA
Uunderhill wrote:
If you are looking for the actual balanced isolation transformer,
with a shield between the primaries and secondaries,
suggest you investigate Plitron transformers - Part No. 8575-X0-02.

The topic of isolation transformers has been discussed numerous times on CAM,
Including this discussion.
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/vi ... p?p=162425


I'm not looking at all. I commented on Ken's recommendation of searching for a used Iso. transformer instead of purchasing new/used from known vendors.

That's great, that the topic has been discussed numerous times -it's a very important consideration (AC power quality) in extracting the best possible performance from hi-fi gear.

pj


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:38 pm
Posts: 1114
Location: woodbridge, ON, CA
1000 Watt isolation transformer should be enough not hold back audio system?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:44 pm
Posts: 693
Location: Repentigny, QC, CA
We still don't have details about your installation,
Cable box?
Near by wifi router?
What do you want to acheive?

all suggestions are great especially with balanced power.
But a simple isolation and do things in order to remove like a wifi router does affect preamps and DACs S/N.


Last edited by revoxb77 on Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:38 pm
Posts: 1114
Location: woodbridge, ON, CA
ive got Bookshelf Speakers a SET Tube Amplifier 6 wpc and Class D Amplifier 90 wpc and 2 Subwoofers and Hybrid Preamp its strictly 2 channel setup


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:44 pm
Posts: 693
Location: Repentigny, QC, CA
Is all your equipments are in the same power bar ou electric distribution?
ie: to have all that is audio on the same ground potential.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:38 pm
Posts: 1114
Location: woodbridge, ON, CA
i have 2 passive power conditioners Gut Wire Maxcon and Essential Sound Products i bought blue circle power conditioner i now plug my passive power conditioners in the blue circle power conditioner theres improvement if a isolation transformer will give me improvement even more why not get it

-- 12 Dec 2017 04:06 --

and yes all my stuff plugged into 1 wall outlet


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:44 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:06 pm
Posts: 5124
Location: Montreal, QC, CA
The size (in KVA rating) of the isolation transformer you use is directly related to the gear you intend to power from it.

You can quite easily power a CD player, a transport, a DAC or a preamp with a small tranny, say 125VA. You might even be able to do two digital devices from the same 125VA unit. A tranny can isolate your digital gear from the rest of your system, and protect your gear from powerline spikes.

A power rating rule of thumb is to use a transformer rated for three times the power you intend to draw from it. If you are wanting to try a tranny on a power amplifier, that rule jumps to FIVE times rated draw or more. My own system ultra-isolator is rated at 15KVA.

If you can find a used ultra-isolator at the right price, these transformers are one of the cheapest ways to clean up your system's sound. The difference is heard in purity of tone, imaging, musical coherence -- in overall terms, clarity and musical information. When I bought my first over a decade ago, for about $35 IIRC, I was tremendously pleased with the bang for the buck.

Clearly, used iso trannies used to be a much better bargain. Now, because folks who use them have shared their experience on the Internet, demand has increased and prices have risen. Thanks much to Ken Hotte of Teo Audio for generously sharing advice on how to find a good one at lower cost today, as well as other related info very interesting to some of us.

CAM warmly encourages folks in the audio industry to participate on the Forums as passionate hobbyists -- read about this policy in the CAM Rules.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:03 pm
Posts: 53
Location: Georgina, ON, CA
Would this work?


Attachments:
B87C187C-7A44-403D-BE7D-425554D4ECC0.jpeg
B87C187C-7A44-403D-BE7D-425554D4ECC0.jpeg [ 341.06 KiB | Viewed 498 times ]
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:22 am
Posts: 148
Location: ontario, ON, CA
There are multiple sources of electrical noise in an audio system. An isolation transformer reduces incoming AC noise, however the majority of the noise on your incoming AC line to each audio component is generated in your home.
Power amp diode bridges, lightning dimmers, furnaces, fridge motors, microwave ovens, washer, dryer, and the greatest evils can be the switchmode power supplies in your plasma/LED tv, DVD player, computers, gaming system, cell phone chargers, etc. Ideally your power distribution bar/box filters each audio component’s AC input because each audio component both generates and receives noise. Controlling both AC noise generation and susceptibility is the goal.
Isolation transformers can have electrostatic shields, the better ones have 2 shields and the best have 3 shields ( primary, secondary and core), but typically nobody in the audio power industry goes that far.
The CMR (common mode noise rejection) increases with the number of shields.

Running all your system on the same AC phase helps - a typical house is 240 VAC which is 2 x 120 VAC circuits 180 degrees out of phase with each other and spread around the house to hopefully equalize the load on each phase. Your system works best ( lowest noise ) when all interconnected components are on the same AC phase.

A quality wide band cable TV transformer (think Jensen) can also help with breaking ground loop noise (and picture quality) when an AV processor or audio feed from a TV is part of your system.

It doesn’t always work. I added a Hammond 1000 watt isolation transformer with built in AC outlet to a preamp, but found the transformer hummed once installed, I had 3 of them, they all did the same, so most of the time they work, but sometimes they don’t, impossible to predict, depends on your Equipment, AC power line and grounding. Sometimes any product with a toroidal transformer inside will buzz, sometimes it’s a transformer with loose windings requiring replacement, sometimes the AC power line has a DC component (from possibly a nearby industrial power user) and a DC blocking filter ( a capacitor/diode bridge is required to clear up the noise - Bryston saw this problem in export markets enough to install this type of filter inside their power amps with torroid transformers)

For the best results the internal power transformer of all audio equipment with linear power supplies can be individually CRC damped on the secondaries to greatly reduce the rectifying noise passed into the internal DC power supply and reduce the noise generated back onto the AC line. This has the most audible benefit when all the system chain is internally filtered ie: pre amp, power amp, tuner (remember those?) etc. An ossiliscope and a $25 impulse tester are used to tune the CRC components, but it means accessing the internal chassis of each product, not many are willing or able.

An isolation transformer doesn’t stop the audio equipment power supplies on the secondary side of the isolation transformer from interacting to each other every AC cycle. The advice on sizing of an isolation transformer by Toby is a good guide line.

Assisting an isolation transformer can be a simple CLC filter consisting of a fused input , then a 10 uf X2 rated safety cap, an oversized common mode choke, and another 10 uf X2 rated cap with a 1 meg 1 watt flame proof resistor in parallel which can be constructed in an external box with an AC outlet makes a very good local isolation filter for an individual audio components. The caps must be X2 rated for AC line use only. If you don’t know what your doing buy a commercial AC filter/distribution power center. Monster’ model 5100 is a good example of individually filtered outlets - ideally just one component on each filtered outlet would be best.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:16 am
Posts: 330
Location: Hamilton, ON, CA
revoxb77 wrote:
Is all your equipments are in the same power bar ou electric distribution?
ie: to have all that is audio on the same ground potential.


Excellent suggestion/recommendation. (Additionally, separating digital gear from analog also helps ensure a 'clean' AC signal path).

pj


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:29 am
Posts: 658
Location: St.Catharines, ON, CA
jnaudio wrote:
i have 2 passive power conditioners Gut Wire Maxcon and Essential Sound Products i bought blue circle power conditioner i now plug my passive power conditioners in the blue circle power conditioner theres improvement if a isolation transformer will give me improvement even more why not get it

-- 12 Dec 2017 04:06 --

and yes all my stuff plugged into 1 wall outlet

So you're plugging power conditioners into power conditioners then on top of that into a isolation transformer?

Hmmm..

Gary


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:35 am 
Offline
Dealer/Sponsor

Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:33 am
Posts: 1756
Location: Kingston, ON, CA
allhifi wrote:
Searching for a used Iso. transformer with precision windings (primary/secondary) as is demanded by a (effective) commercially available Balanced/Symmetrical power supply (i.e. isolation Transformer) may very well prove to be a 'shot-in-the-dark' undertaking.

Part of the expense of , say an Equi=tech product, is that of an ultra premium transformer design/winding precision. I'll bet they if not design their own, test each/every one to meet stringent specifications/QC. This is both time consuming -and expensive.

To think that such a premium transformer can be found in an aging (10-20 year old) design found scouring the Net and Craigs-list is unwise -foolish some would say.

Ken (from Teo Audio), are you referring to 'Torus' when you say 'Topaz' ? Additionally, you mention Eaton Powerware, so I looked up its products -what precisely does Eaton offer for residential audio buffs (or those looking for either a Equi=tech-ish Symmetrical/Bal. unit or a PS Audio-like AC Re-Generator) ? http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServ ... /index.htm

As opposed to searching and buying isolation transformers from Ireland , look to the used (local) market for a premium model from various brands -both new and used.

Most peculiar, however, is the "Buy Used" mantra from a supplier/manufacturer of new products ?

peter jasz



It's not always necessary to buy the newest to get some gain, so why not look at used? New is right there, and I'm not interested in being a market shill, nor do I think that other manufacturers would shun such reasonable talk from another manufacturer. If one wants to buy new, then by all means, look into it.

My mentioned trade off was the trade off of learning and effort being required, no rubber stamp behavior, thank you very much. I mentioned pretty well all the possible avenues, not just one. Even the class d build trick, if one really wants to play around, but that's a game for a really well rounded tech person, not the casual reader. Some of these class D amps can put out a good 2500 watts and that's not something to be trifled with. Pretty well as dangerous as the given light socket.

As for phase matching of the halves of transformers, well, this is done by every manufacturer that I'm aware of. the precision of such is a question but then comes the value or sound qualities of the given levels of precision. What does that mean for the sonics of the given scenario?

Until that is qualified and weighted into the equation, the entire value of matching and how close the average transformer is compared to a premium audio brand may be....well...it's up for grabs. the best that can be done is to make a perfect transformer and then on the same set up, make one that where the phases are off by the expected industry average... and then compare the two in sound quality. Of course, with all things being equal, which they never are, ie, the given test sytem being different and different levels of sensitivity to these aspects and so on.

Then one would know and be the only one who knows..and find a wall of other people's inability to understand one's particular point of understanding.

_________________
(Ken Hotte, of) Teo Audio


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:16 am
Posts: 330
Location: Hamilton, ON, CA
Teo Audio wrote:
allhifi wrote:
Searching for a used Iso. transformer with precision windings (primary/secondary) as is demanded by a (effective) commercially available Balanced/Symmetrical power supply (i.e. isolation Transformer) may very well prove to be a 'shot-in-the-dark' undertaking.

Part of the expense of , say an Equi=tech product, is that of an ultra premium transformer design/winding precision. I'll bet they if not design their own, test each/every one to meet stringent specifications/QC. This is both time consuming -and expensive.

To think that such a premium transformer can be found in an aging (10-20 year old) design found scouring the Net and Craigs-list is unwise -foolish some would say.

Ken (from Teo Audio), are you referring to 'Torus' when you say 'Topaz' ? Additionally, you mention Eaton Powerware, so I looked up its products -what precisely does Eaton offer for residential audio buffs (or those looking for either a Equi=tech-ish Symmetrical/Bal. unit or a PS Audio-like AC Re-Generator) ? http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServ ... /index.htm

As opposed to searching and buying isolation transformers from Ireland , look to the used (local) market for a premium model from various brands -both new and used.

Most peculiar, however, is the "Buy Used" mantra from a supplier/manufacturer of new products ?

peter jasz



It's not always necessary to buy the newest to get some gain, so why not look at used? New is right there, and I'm not interested in being a market shill, nor do I think that other manufacturers would shun such reasonable talk from another manufacturer. If one wants to buy new, then by all means, look into it.

My mentioned trade off was the trade off of learning and effort being required, no rubber stamp behavior, thank you very much. I mentioned pretty well all the possible avenues, not just one. Even the class d build trick, if one really wants to play around, but that's a game for a really well rounded tech person, not the casual reader. Some of these class D amps can put out a good 2500 watts and that's not something to be trifled with. Pretty well as dangerous as the given light socket.

As for phase matching of the halves of transformers, well, this is done by every manufacturer that I'm aware of. the precision of such is a question but then comes the value or sound qualities of the given levels of precision. What does that mean for the sonics of the given scenario?

Until that is qualified and weighted into the equation, the entire value of matching and how close the average transformer is compared to a premium audio brand may be....well...it's up for grabs. the best that can be done is to make a perfect transformer and then on the same set up, make one that where the phases are off by the expected industry average... and then compare the two in sound quality. Of course, with all things being equal, which they never are, ie, the given test sytem being different and different levels of sensitivity to these aspects and so on.

Then one would know and be the only one who knows..and find a wall of other people's inability to understand one's particular point of understanding.


And the mysteries ... continue.

peter (of Jasz)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:38 pm
Posts: 1114
Location: woodbridge, ON, CA
i can hear humming on 1 of my right channel subwoofer when i put my ear up close to the sub and hissing or hash noise when i have my ear close to speakers will a isolation transformer help with maybe even eliminate the problem


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:16 am
Posts: 330
Location: Hamilton, ON, CA
jnaudio wrote:
i can hear humming on 1 of my right channel subwoofer when i put my ear up close to the sub and hissing or hash noise when i have my ear close to speakers will a isolation transformer help with maybe even eliminate the problem


Not sure. But ear-muffs may ! (lol)

pj


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group