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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:27 am 
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I guess there's people who tried but did not shared their results, but it's enough for me if it can help that's the most important.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:42 am 
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I have tried ABXing some things before, because I was really worried about how they affected the sound. I was not successful at telling a difference on those items. So, I don't worry about that stuff any more.

The lowered anxiety level makes my enjoyment of the music so much better.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:44 am 
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patate91 wrote:
I guess there's people who tried but did not shared their results, but it's enough for me if it can help that's the most important.

I applaud your efforts but this topic has been presented, numerous times now, and has caused enough friction and has largely fallen upon deaf ears that, those of us who have attempted to help those interested, have given up the challenge and have left the premises, either voluntarily or without choice.

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A listening test comparing components is valid only when you are able to instantaneously switch between components which have been properly level matched and whose identities are unknown to you.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:00 pm 
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Pneumonic wrote:
patate91 wrote:
I guess there's people who tried but did not shared their results, but it's enough for me if it can help that's the most important.

I applaud your efforts but this topic has been presented, numerous times now, and has caused enough friction and has largely fallen upon deaf ears that, those of us who have attempted to help those interested, have given up the challenge and have left the premises, either voluntarily or without choice.


Yep I'm not the first and I invented nothing. But since the past threads are not sticky or going up, we should not give up IMO. The goal is to get the information available to newcomers or people interested. Who's right who's wrong is not important, what's important is to get the right tools to be informed.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:35 pm 
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extreme quality systems with extreme quality cables and extreme quality components... require extreme care in implementing extreme quality bypass and extreme quality switching.

Otherwise the attempt is compromised right from the get-go.

And a whole bunch of other aspects to be covered.

This topic of ABX has been beaten to death a thousand times over (Literally), with zero resolution.

Leave it in the dirt where it belongs.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:58 pm 
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So reading a review is good but experiment by ourselves is not a good?

The procedure is about ear training too. Again : what is clipping, can you described it with words perfectly? Seems like people are earing things that other don't, maybe we just have to practice?

For my tests I was able to hear a difference between 65kbps vs APE full quality by focusing on cymbals, took me a couple of seconds each time. But 130kbps vs lossless was a total fail. I tried to focus on certain aspect but it did not work. Maybe it's easier with more complex songs, or more obvious? This kind of suggestions may be very helpful to people who want to learn.

Thinking that ABX tests serves only to be able to prove other people are wrong is totaly useless.

Again it can be a useful tool if explain correctly.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:37 pm 
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Let's keep in mind that TEO audio is a cable manufacturer so it's in his best interests to discount ABX. If people just paid $600 for a "game changer" and couldn't ID it over a blue jeans cable they wouldn't be very happy now would they!!


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:54 am 
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analogluvr wrote:
Let's keep in mind that TEO audio is a cable manufacturer so it's in his best interests to discount ABX. If people just paid $600 for a "game changer" and couldn't ID it over a blue jeans cable they wouldn't be very happy now would they!!


Exactly. I find it odd that people would discredit ABX because to them it induces anxiety and ruins the results, but they don't feel anxious at all at parting with $600 for a couple pieces of wire. ( Perhaps well chosen wire, but wire never the less).

What patate91 is saying is that one can RECORD the influence of the different components and PLAYBACK the recordings through whatever system you like.

There is no switching equipment in the way at all. The test is completely fine, done in the privacy and comfort of your own home, without anyone watching or suggesting what you should be hearing. It's truly "ears only".


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:44 am 
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Bumpy wrote:
analogluvr wrote:
Let's keep in mind that TEO audio is a cable manufacturer so it's in his best interests to discount ABX. If people just paid $600 for a "game changer" and couldn't ID it over a blue jeans cable they wouldn't be very happy now would they!!


Exactly. I find it odd that people would discredit ABX because to them it induces anxiety and ruins the results, but they don't feel anxious at all at parting with $600 for a couple pieces of wire. ( Perhaps well chosen wire, but wire never the less).

What patate91 is saying is that one can RECORD the influence of the different components and PLAYBACK the recordings through whatever system you like.

There is no switching equipment in the way at all. The test is completely fine, done in the privacy and comfort of your own home, without anyone watching or suggesting what you should be hearing. It's truly "ears only".


My understanding is patate91’s example is to evaluate different files through the same equipment. MP3 vs WAV as an example. TBH I don’t understand the reasoning behind this outside perhaps curiosity. If you rip or download a certain file type, why convert it?

If recording you are now influenced by the equipment used to record.

ABX is fun and may reveal some interesting results, but there are too many variables and complications for the average user to faithfully pull it off.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:03 am 
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sthomas1049 wrote:
Bumpy wrote:
analogluvr wrote:
Let's keep in mind that TEO audio is a cable manufacturer so it's in his best interests to discount ABX. If people just paid $600 for a "game changer" and couldn't ID it over a blue jeans cable they wouldn't be very happy now would they!!


Exactly. I find it odd that people would discredit ABX because to them it induces anxiety and ruins the results, but they don't feel anxious at all at parting with $600 for a couple pieces of wire. ( Perhaps well chosen wire, but wire never the less).

What patate91 is saying is that one can RECORD the influence of the different components and PLAYBACK the recordings through whatever system you like.

There is no switching equipment in the way at all. The test is completely fine, done in the privacy and comfort of your own home, without anyone watching or suggesting what you should be hearing. It's truly "ears only".


My understanding is patate91’s example is to evaluate different files through the same equipment. MP3 vs WAV as an example. TBH I don’t understand the reasoning behind this outside perhaps curiosity. If you rip or download a certain file type, why convert it?

If recording you are now influenced by the equipment used to record.

ABX is fun and may reveal some interesting results, but there are too many variables and complications for the average user to faithfully pull it off.



First I would like to developed it to more than file format comparison.

I added link to Ethan Winer's web site where you'll find audio file that compare noise, equipments, etc.

One of the goal is to train your ear, could you here differences : yes ? Then Why? No? Again why? Is it because your not trained enough? Your earing just declined with age? Or it's audiophile BS?

For the last comment how can someone claim that he/she hear differences between cables if he/she cannot hear a difference between lossy and lossless audio files? Why would someone invest his/her money to get high rez file if there's no differences at the listening (I understand that some people have enough money and they spent it how they want)

-- 28 Sep 2017 14:09 --

I will add another exemple :
Someone claimed that since he changed the amp's power cord he now hear things he never heard. That now everything is more clear, detailed and airy! You know that night and day difference!

We can now assume that he can get better score at comparisons he previously failed.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:56 am 
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But accepting what Ethan Winer has to say is no different than accepting what ACME Cable Co has to say about their high-priced cables. Or any equipment manufacturer for that matter. The point of trying to pull off ABX is to eliminate influence – this includes those of both the subjective and objective camp.

Lossless vs lossy is open for scrutiny – perform the same test using a 1K tone, can you have the difference? A full range piano score may suffer more from lossy compression than say a metal song with multiple amplified instruments (this is just an example and not fact!). In order for your test to be accurate, you need to know known values of the files you are trying to evaluate. What exactly has the lossy file removed from the music?

Grab a handful of tracks of various different music styles – the more the better. This will be easier if all the files are WAV so perform a lossless conversion if needed. Now covert each track to your choice of lossy file, say MP3 but keep the uncompressed WAV. Take your lossy file and convert back to WAV (this is required to mix). Load both the lossless WAV and lossy WAV in to Audacity (free program). Invert 1 of the files then perform a “Mix then Render”. The outcome will be the difference between the 2 music tracks – OR what was removed during the lossy conversion. Can you honestly say you are able to hear what was removed? Especially once it is buried within a full musical score?

I am also of high belief that we may not be able to detect differences right away. Music is all about emotion to which we do not really have control over. You could put on your favorite Zeppelin tune one day and think…Man, Bonham sounds f’n amazing! Because your senses have been enlightened by Bonham’s drumming, you may subconsciously be neglecting details from the other musicians.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:58 am 
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sthomas1049 wrote:
Bumpy wrote:
analogluvr wrote:
Let's keep in mind that TEO audio is a cable manufacturer so it's in his best interests to discount ABX. If people just paid $600 for a "game changer" and couldn't ID it over a blue jeans cable they wouldn't be very happy now would they!!


Exactly. I find it odd that people would discredit ABX because to them it induces anxiety and ruins the results, but they don't feel anxious at all at parting with $600 for a couple pieces of wire. ( Perhaps well chosen wire, but wire never the less).

What patate91 is saying is that one can RECORD the influence of the different components and PLAYBACK the recordings through whatever system you like.

There is no switching equipment in the way at all. The test is completely fine, done in the privacy and comfort of your own home, without anyone watching or suggesting what you should be hearing. It's truly "ears only".


If recording you are now influenced by the equipment used to record.

ABX is fun and may reveal some interesting results, but there are too many variables and complications for the average user to faithfully pull it off.


Assuming that you are not using your laptop mic input to record, but have a dedicated recording device, then there should be no issue with recording your line level signals. Especially if recording at 24/96 or better -- which a lot of gear can do. EG. some people lose their minds over the amazing difference that a power cord on their DAC can make. So, if that difference really is so big, it should be obvious in an ABX test.

But in reality, it's been shown that once people make a decision, all the facts in the world won't change their minds. That's deeper than audio. It includes politics, religion, anything really. And yes, that's been studied by reputable scholars.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:10 pm 
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Bumpy wrote:
sthomas1049 wrote:
Bumpy wrote:
Exactly. I find it odd that people would discredit ABX because to them it induces anxiety and ruins the results, but they don't feel anxious at all at parting with $600 for a couple pieces of wire. ( Perhaps well chosen wire, but wire never the less).

What patate91 is saying is that one can RECORD the influence of the different components and PLAYBACK the recordings through whatever system you like.

There is no switching equipment in the way at all. The test is completely fine, done in the privacy and comfort of your own home, without anyone watching or suggesting what you should be hearing. It's truly "ears only".


If recording you are now influenced by the equipment used to record.

ABX is fun and may reveal some interesting results, but there are too many variables and complications for the average user to faithfully pull it off.


Assuming that you are not using your laptop mic input to record, but have a dedicated recording device, then there should be no issue with recording your line level signals. Especially if recording at 24/96 or better -- which a lot of gear can do. EG. some people lose their minds over the amazing difference that a power cord on their DAC can make. So, if that difference really is so big, it should be obvious in an ABX test.

But in reality, it's been shown that once people make a decision, all the facts in the world won't change their minds. That's deeper than audio. It includes politics, religion, anything really. And yes, that's been studied by reputable scholars.


Ok, so not to debate but to discuss fairly – what recording device(s) are you referring to? One buys a new power cord for his amplifier, how do they go about recording the differences said power cord makes vs the standard cord?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:22 pm 
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sthomas1049 wrote:
, religion, anything really. And yes, that's been studied by reputable scholars.


Ok, so not to debate but to discuss fairly – what recording device(s) are you referring to? One buys a new power cord for his amplifier, how do they go about recording the differences said power cord makes vs the standard cord?[/quote]


This

https://global.focusrite.com/usb-audio-interfaces/forte

+ All devices that pros are using to record music and instruments (including sound cards)

-- 28 Sep 2017 16:35 --

sthomas1049 wrote:
But accepting what Ethan Winer has to say is no different than accepting what ACME Cable Co has to say about their high-priced cables. Or any equipment manufacturer for that matter. The point of trying to pull off ABX is to eliminate influence – this includes those of both the subjective and objective camp.


Ethan is not just saying things, he's sharing his experiment's steps, results as well as materials to draw your own conclusion. So you don't have beleive, just experiment. And if you find an error or something you send him an email and he'll awnser and correct if needed.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:05 pm 
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So not to discredit the Forte device you referenced, but I still do not know how that will allow you to objectively evaluate power cords on an amplifier? Do you own one? Do you think it is practical for someone to spend $1000 or so on a recording device just to evaluate equipment? To note: I am using the subject of power cords because you referenced them. I am not saying I am for or against exotic cable. In fact, the topic is of ABX testing, lets keep it as such and not turn this into a cable debate.

Another question - How do you know what the pro’s are using? We make an assumption that it is of quality but not every studio has an Abby Road budget. There is a reason why Behringer has such a large market share – cause they sell a sh!t load of cost effective products that cater to studios with a tight budget. Are you saying if a professional uses a $400 Behringer A to D converter that it must produce the same quality as a $12k Weiss? Would you not question a $400 A/D converter if it was to be used to evaluate stereo equipment costing 10x as much?


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