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 Post subject: Re: Spotify and Tidal
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:07 am 
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I gave up on the whole jitter, cables etc when I realized through measurements and ears that moving my head or my speakers 6 inches in my untreated room made a big difference.

I was taught a long time ago by a very bright and successful researcher that in most systems (in this case environmental contaminant modeling) some factors tend towards either a fixed number or zero and should be disregarded when looking for a workable solution. Once I applied this thinking to audio I had so much more room for the music in my listening experience.

My 2 cents, worth what you paid for it. Enjoy your tunes!

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify and Tidal
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:20 am 
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I was just reading that in the brain and body that neural propagation moves faster than electron reactions and actions can take place in neural systems, regarding how classical science has viewed them.

That a pulse wave through neurological systems happens across the entire body at up to 1/10,000th of a second, but never slower than 1/1,000th of a second.

Nevermind the neurological process itself.

This is interesting in that Neal Peart, a well trained system if there eve was one..can, when using his click track drum timing technique..be accurate on the beat -at up to 1/10,000th of a second.

BTW, that's 5,490 km per hour as a propagation rate, based on an average 6 foot tall person. Or 1,525km/s.

(6 feet x 10,000 = 60,000ft per full second of a neural propagation rate) (and that's just what we know. What else will be discovered?)

My point is that jitter can be heard by the complex FFT system that is the human ear. The one so complex that human made hardware cannot equal.

We can compute and analyze what..60, 100 components (or more) of a complex musical harmonic, all at the same time, in real time? Which creates a capacity, in time, via iterations, to zero in on picosecond level jitter? I's all right there on paper as good solid real world science.

This ear thingamabob... is tied to a computer that analyses the signal, one so complex that human science can't measure, understand, equal or compete with in any form of known or imagined computer or simulation hardware: The Human brain, which also operates in a complex holographic FFT manner. Across up to 11 dimensional and geometric forms, no less.

So we can't say that jitter has been solved, nor can we say that hearing and audio has been solved. We can't even measure what the ear reliably hears - among many hundreds of thousands of audiophiles and over the years, millions of them hearing these audio and jitter artifacts.

To clarify, we can't dismiss what people say they hear as we can't even come close to designing test gear that equal the mind/brain and ear.

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Last edited by Teo Audio on Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:38 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify and Tidal
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:23 am 
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Audio_Guy wrote:
allhifi wrote:
I may very well be misinterpreting here, but from what Iunderstand you're saying is that both digital Jitter concerns and cable quality was resolved back in the 1980 's ?


Sorry for being so general, On these topics I will say:

1) All cable issues with analogue signals in the audio band as they apply to home audio were resolved by the mid 1950's at the latest

2) All issues with jitter as they apply to home audio were resolved by the mid 1990's at the latest.

That being said there may be some really really substandard crappy products out there that might have some issues yet.


Audio_Guy: You're too beautiful ! (Have you seen the movie "Beautiful Dreamers"?)

You replies/thoughts are most entertaining. I honestly get a real, deep, genuine belly laugh when I read/sense such talk -it's a great pain reliever (did you know?) !

Thank you.

At this point, for our dialog to continue (it won't, but may) it's time to identify yourself.

peter jasz

-- 11 Sep 2017 15:29 --

Teo Audio wrote:
I was just reading that in the brain and body that neural propagation moves faster than electron reactions and actions can take place in neural systems, regarding how classical science has viewed them.

That a pulse wave through neurological systems happens across the entire body at up to 1/10,000th of a second, but never slower than 1/1,000th of a second.

Nevermind the neurological process itself.

This is interesting in that Neal Peart, a well trained system if there eve was one..can, when using his click track drum timing technique..be accurate on the beat -at up to 1/10,000th of a second.

BTW, that's 5,490,000 km per hour as a propagation rate, based on an average 6 foot tall person. Or 1,525km/s.

My point is that jitter can be heard by the complex FFT system that is the human ear. The one so complex that human made hardware cannot equal.

Which is tied to a computer that analyses the signal, one so complex that human science can't measure, understand, equal or compete with in any form of known or imagined computer or simulation hardware: The Human brain, which also operates in a complex holographic FFT manner. Across up to 11 dimensional and geometric forms, no less.

So we can't say that jitter has been solved, nor can we say that hearing and audio has been solved. We can't even measure what the ear reliably hears - among many hundreds of thousands of audiophiles and over the years, millions of them hearing these audio and jitter artifacts.

To clarify, we can't dismiss what people say they hear as we can't even come close to designing test gear that the equal the mind/brain and ear.



Hi Ken: Now we're (you're) talking !

Indeed, there is so much more to learn and understand. It's clear you are a passionate and talented individual. I didn't realize the the Audio_Guy was caught in a perpetual time warp (circa 1950's). It's been known to happen. lol

Ken, you require a forum of peers, where antiquated thought and understanding are left precisely where it belongs. Here (as other sites) is a place for the voiceless to speak -no one really listens, but they feel better for the opportunity. We must be cognizant of this.

peter jasz


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify and Tidal
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:32 am 
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allhifi wrote:
Audio_Guy: BTW Your cable reference is FAR from clear -what exactly are you saying ?


My main point is that cables, either digital or analog shouldn't be an issue to concern audiophiles. There is no magic here, these are no brainers. There are many places to get perfect cables and reasonable prices.

allhifi wrote:
Secondly, ".... If numbers are the same and no packets have been dropped then all is good" ?


Yes, as far as the transmission of data and audio is concerned.

allhifi wrote:
Let me see if I can read between your lines, and ask: Therefore (for example), cable quality (USB/SPDIF) would have no impact on sound quality ?pj


Is shouldn't unless you are using broken cables.


I don't mean to be obtuse, here is what I have been occupied with:

1) setting up my linux box as a music server and finding great "free" streaming internet music.
2) getting bit perfect audio out of my linux box
3) creating a personal playlist of folk rock music from the 60's and 70's.
4) buying a new cartridge for my TT.


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify and Tidal
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:40 am 
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I fixed my math, I had it in meters per second, not km per second. So it's not that fast but still....ridiculously fast. 1.525km per second propagation rate is plenty 'ridiculous' fast.

Also, as an aside.... to equal what a turntable cartridge can do, with respect to timing perfection between channels (human hearing, two ears one brain - stereo imaging) ...a digital system would have to sample at over 7 million samples per second, with no jitter at all.

Which ain't happening any time soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify and Tidal
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:39 am 
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Teo Audio wrote:
I was just reading that in the brain and body that neural propagation moves faster than electron reactions and actions can take place in neural systems, regarding how classical science has viewed them.

That a pulse wave through neurological systems happens across the entire body at up to 1/10,000th of a second, but never slower than 1/1,000th of a second.

Nevermind the neurological process itself.
To clarify, we can't dismiss what people say they hear as we can't even come close to designing test gear that equal the mind/brain and ear.

BS!

Audio recording and playback is not that complicated; it's just electrical voltages. An audio device has no sense of emotion or feelings .... all it does is process an electrical voltage. All of the emotions and feelings are added later, by your brain; the audio device has nothing to do with that.

We can absolutely measure the electrical and acoustic signals that make up the sounds that constitute a musical performance we hear. And we can do so down way below picosecond accuracy and < 0dB SPL. We can measure with accuracy and precision that surpass the human ear and brain by orders of magnitude, and we can absolutely measure the signals that make up a recorded and replayed performance, to absolute 100% accuracy in both signal level and timing.

-- September 11th, 2017, 11:43 am --

Teo Audio wrote:
I fixed my math, I had it in meters per second, not km per second. So it's not that fast but still....ridiculously fast. 1.525km per second propagation rate is plenty 'ridiculous' fast.

Also, as an aside.... to equal what a turntable cartridge can do, with respect to timing perfection between channels (human hearing, two ears one brain - stereo imaging) ...a digital system would have to sample at over 7 million samples per second, with no jitter at all.

Which ain't happening any time soon.

Please. In the analog world, wow and flutter distortion is digital’s jitter distortion.

Most any currently basic digital system has unweighted jitter measurements under 100pS.

The very best turntable can achieve wow and flutter figures of say 0.03%. Note that this figure is weighted. Without weighting it would be 0.3%. This using a 3 kHz tone.

If we wish to compare wow and flutter to jitter, we need to convert them to the same distortion component. So, let’s convert wow and flutter (as a %) to jitter (as time in picoseconds). The 0.3% wow and flutter number equates to a 9 Hz shift in the 3 kHz measurement tone. A 3 kHz tone has a period of 333 µS. So, the 0.3% wow and flutter shifts this period by 1 microsecond. 1 µS = 1,000,000 pS.

IOW, the best turntable has jitter distortion that is 10,000 x greater than even a basic DAC! The irony here is …. if a designer ever produced a DAC with 1 million pS of jitter he’d be laughed off the face of this earth. Yet, turntable’s are routinely produced with such distortion.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify and Tidal
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:43 am 
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Teo Audio wrote:
Also, as an aside.... to equal what a turntable cartridge can do, with respect to timing perfection between channels (human hearing, two ears one brain - stereo imaging) ...a digital system would have to sample at over 7 million samples per second, with no jitter at all.


These figures would be meaningful in a world where distortion doesn't exist when playing back vinyl ... IMO from that perspective vinyl is probably one of the least perfect mediums ... please don't kill me; I've owned vinyl, and know the effects of pressing technique/qualiy, surface wear, dust, variation in reading speed from center to edge, slight surface imperfections (from manufacture or handling/use), microphonic effects of the cartridge, etc.

I admit that vinyl is/can be euphonic; it has tremendous charm and good fidelity when done right. But between original signal in (recording) and signal out (playback) there is an awful lot going on to colour the sound.


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify and Tidal
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:48 am 
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Underlying it all, on the record, the timing is still correct and at the stated level of overall jitter and correctness in that bandwidth.

The fact that humans still hear that in a record, that fundamental correctness and they don't hear it in digital and have to deal with jitter in digital, well..this does make it carry more weight then the dismissive posturing about measurements.

We don't know it all, and some of what we know is wrong, and will change based on the new data.

Call BS all you want, it won't change what it is.


The signal wanders in and out of the noise floor. And humans can hear past the wow and flutter. A core aspect of our hearing functions. We can even remove our physical noise (our body noise) from our hearing. And that noise is quite large in value and range of frequency and intensity.

That is the FFT analysis part that the brain and ear excels at which the hardware cannot equal. The hardware can do some one trick pony bits but it can't beat the ear-brain combination. Even the sonar on subs requires a human operator for interpretation.

There is zero chance I'll back down from what I know and what data I've read and interpreted. to add, those little bits I've shared are maybe one in a thousand of the bits of research that fill the answers out to perfection. All interconnected.

I simply won't throw down with any counter argument.

I'm very very tired of limited views with half baked incomplete data stepping in... and telling people what the science and reality is. When the last 20-30-40 years of the heights of complex interwoven science is left on the cutting room floor.... for a few simple measurements being used as replacement poseurs, well, that takes the cake.

And we suffer through this crap every day, where the incomplete flat earth scientism tries to tell the average Joe -what is and what is not. When this electrical analysis is not even making it to the half baked level of completeness in data or the full complexity of the question and answer.

Most people won't do the work and commit to the research required to flesh the complexities out, and are thus doomed to simple incorrect answers and circling the drain of the same story told again and again, and into a dead end cul-de-sac.

And the average Joe can't understand the complexities even if shown, so the average Joe is stuck listening to those who don't really have a true grasp. Screwed from all sides into a slow ride to nowhere.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``

The most important take-away about all this, is that if things are as some here say it is, ie that the measurements we have and use equal (human)reality or exceed it..., then the problems would be solved at the human level. In logic, the perfect data is capable of producing the perfect question and answer set.

Yet....

Almost anyone here will tell you that the problems are not solved. Not even remotely solved.

So your data is not perfect and not specifically relevant to a question that is not properly formed and/or not properly known/realized.

When having dealt with people who are properly trained in scientific method (who kick my ass around the room), I can say, IMO and IME .. without a doubt, little to nothing of what passes for logic on these boards is even remotely functional.

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify and Tidal
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:08 pm 
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Teo Audio wrote:
Underlying it all, on the record, the timing is still correct and at the stated level of overall jitter and correctness in that bandwidth.

The fact that humans still hear that in a record, that fundamental correctness and they don't hear it in digital and have to deal with jitter in digital, well..this does make it carry more weight then the dismissive posturing about measurements.

We don't know it all, and some of what we know is wrong, and will change based on the new data.

Call BS all you want, it won't change what it is.


The signal wanders in and out of the noise floor. And humans can hear past the wow and flutter. A core aspect of our hearing functions. We can even remove our physical noise (our body noise) from our hearing. And that noise is quite large in value and range of frequency and intensity.

That is the FFT analysis part that the brain and ear excels at which the hardware cannot equal. The hardware can do some one trick pony bits but it can't beat the ear-brain combination. Even the sonar on subs requires a human operator for interpretation.

There is zero chance I'll back down from what I know and what data I've read and interpreted. to add, those little bits I've shared are maybe one in a thousand of the bits of research that fill the answers out to perfection. All interconnected.

I simply won't throw down with any counter argument.

I'm very very tired of limited views with half baked incomplete data stepping in... and telling people what the science and reality is. When the last 20-30-40 years of the heights of complex interwoven science is left on the cutting room floor.... for a few simple measurements being used as replacement poseurs, well, that takes the cake.

And we suffer through this crap every day, where the incomplete flat earth scientism tries to tell the average Joe -what is and what is not. When this electrical analysis is not even making it to the half baked level of completeness in data or the full complexity of the question and answer.

Most people won't do the work and commit to the research required to flesh the complexities out, and are thus doomed to simple incorrect answers and circling the drain of the same story told again and again, and into a dead end cul-de-sac.

And the average Joe can't understand the complexities even if shown, so the average Joe is stuck listening to those who don't really have a true grasp. Screwed from all sides into a slow ride to nowhere.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``

The most important take-away about all this, is that if things are as some here say it is, ie that the measurements we have and use equal (human)reality or exceed it..., then the problems would be solved at the human level. In logic, the perfect data is capable of producing the perfect question and answer set.

Yet....

Almost anyone here will tell you that the problems are not solved. Not even remotely solved.

So your data is not perfect and not specifically relevant to a question that is not properly formed and/or not properly known/realized.

When having dealt with people who are properly trained in scientific method (who kick my ass around the room), I can say, IMO and IME .. without a doubt, little to nothing of what passes for logic on these boards is even remotely functional.

I spent almost 20 years in the RF design world where distortion and noise is truly problematic and where jitter actually matters.

Life in the sub 20kHz world is well known and has been cited and understood for eons. Unless, you are telling me that science has yet to discover more about what comprises a sound wave beyond amplitude, frequency and phase. Please do tell, as that would really be something :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify and Tidal
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:49 pm 
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Pneumonic wrote:
Teo Audio wrote:
I was just reading that in the brain and body that neural propagation moves faster than electron reactions and actions can take place in neural systems, regarding how classical science has viewed them.

That a pulse wave through neurological systems happens across the entire body at up to 1/10,000th of a second, but never slower than 1/1,000th of a second.

Nevermind the neurological process itself.
To clarify, we can't dismiss what people say they hear as we can't even come close to designing test gear that equal the mind/brain and ear.

BS!

Audio recording and playback is not that complicated; it's just electrical voltages. An audio device has no sense of emotion or feelings .... all it does is process an electrical voltage. All of the emotions and feelings are added later, by your brain; the audio device has nothing to do with that.

We can absolutely measure the electrical and acoustic signals that make up the sounds that constitute a musical performance we hear. And we can do so down way below picosecond accuracy and < 0dB SPL. We can measure with accuracy and precision that surpass the human ear and brain by orders of magnitude, and we can absolutely measure the signals that make up a recorded and replayed performance, to absolute 100% accuracy in both signal level and timing.

-- September 11th, 2017, 11:43 am --

Teo Audio wrote:
I fixed my math, I had it in meters per second, not km per second. So it's not that fast but still....ridiculously fast. 1.525km per second propagation rate is plenty 'ridiculous' fast.

Also, as an aside.... to equal what a turntable cartridge can do, with respect to timing perfection between channels (human hearing, two ears one brain - stereo imaging) ...a digital system would have to sample at over 7 million samples per second, with no jitter at all.

Which ain't happening any time soon.

Please. In the analog world, wow and flutter distortion is digital’s jitter distortion.

Most any currently basic digital system has unweighted jitter measurements under 100pS.

The very best turntable can achieve wow and flutter figures of say 0.03%. Note that this figure is weighted. Without weighting it would be 0.3%. This using a 3 kHz tone.

If we wish to compare wow and flutter to jitter, we need to convert them to the same distortion component. So, let’s convert wow and flutter (as a %) to jitter (as time in picoseconds). The 0.3% wow and flutter number equates to a 9 Hz shift in the 3 kHz measurement tone. A 3 kHz tone has a period of 333 µS. So, the 0.3% wow and flutter shifts this period by 1 microsecond. 1 µS = 1,000,000 pS.

IOW, the best turntable has jitter distortion that is 10,000 x greater than even a basic DAC! The irony here is …. if a designer ever produced a DAC with 1 million pS of jitter he’d be laughed off the face of this earth. Yet, turntable’s are routinely produced with such distortion.


Wow. Great counterpoint. Loved the comparisons and analogy.

pj

-- 12 Sep 2017 00:56 --

Pneumonic wrote:
Teo Audio wrote:
I was just reading that in the brain and body that neural propagation moves faster than electron reactions and actions can take place in neural systems, regarding how classical science has viewed them.

That a pulse wave through neurological systems happens across the entire body at up to 1/10,000th of a second, but never slower than 1/1,000th of a second.

Nevermind the neurological process itself.
To clarify, we can't dismiss what people say they hear as we can't even come close to designing test gear that equal the mind/brain and ear.

BS!

Audio recording and playback is not that complicated; it's just electrical voltages. An audio device has no sense of emotion or feelings .... all it does is process an electrical voltage. All of the emotions and feelings are added later, by your brain; the audio device has nothing to do with that.

We can absolutely measure the electrical and acoustic signals that make up the sounds that constitute a musical performance we hear. And we can do so down way below picosecond accuracy and < 0dB SPL. We can measure with accuracy and precision that surpass the human ear and brain by orders of magnitude, and we can absolutely measure the signals that make up a recorded and replayed performance, to absolute 100% accuracy in both signal level and timing.

-- September 11th, 2017, 11:43 am --

Teo Audio wrote:
I fixed my math, I had it in meters per second, not km per second. So it's not that fast but still....ridiculously fast. 1.525km per second propagation rate is plenty 'ridiculous' fast.

Also, as an aside.... to equal what a turntable cartridge can do, with respect to timing perfection between channels (human hearing, two ears one brain - stereo imaging) ...a digital system would have to sample at over 7 million samples per second, with no jitter at all.

Which ain't happening any time soon.

Please. In the analog world, wow and flutter distortion is digital’s jitter distortion.

Most any currently basic digital system has unweighted jitter measurements under 100pS.

The very best turntable can achieve wow and flutter figures of say 0.03%. Note that this figure is weighted. Without weighting it would be 0.3%. This using a 3 kHz tone.

If we wish to compare wow and flutter to jitter, we need to convert them to the same distortion component. So, let’s convert wow and flutter (as a %) to jitter (as time in picoseconds). The 0.3% wow and flutter number equates to a 9 Hz shift in the 3 kHz measurement tone. A 3 kHz tone has a period of 333 µS. So, the 0.3% wow and flutter shifts this period by 1 microsecond. 1 µS = 1,000,000 pS.

IOW, the best turntable has jitter distortion that is 10,000 x greater than even a basic DAC! The irony here is …. if a designer ever produced a DAC with 1 million pS of jitter he’d be laughed off the face of this earth. Yet, turntable’s are routinely produced with such distortion.


Pneumonic: Although your counterpoint was well crafted, your ending line/quote is however BS, namely:

" A listening test comparing components is valid only when you are able to instantaneously switch between components which have been properly level matched and whose identities are unknown to you."

" able to instantaneously switch ..." ".. is valid ONLY .."

Umm, using your preferred language - Please.


pj


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify and Tidal
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:06 pm 
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Ah, so this is what it means when a thread gets hijacked. Time to close this off and let others squabble in their own thread. Moderator please?

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 Post subject: Re: Spotify and Tidal
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:45 pm 
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milesian wrote:
Ah, so this is what it means when a thread gets hijacked. Time to close this off and let others squabble in their own thread. Moderator please?


RE: "Ah, so this is what it means when a thread gets hijacked."

I don't see it that way -it's all related. Use some imagination -and craft.

pj


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify and Tidal
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:17 pm 
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Yep, this one's gone off the rails...


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify and Tidal
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:23 pm 
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Off the rails maybe but.....


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 Post subject: Re: Spotify and Tidal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:31 am 
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https://finance.yahoo.com/news/spotify- ... 18486.html
Is there any truth to this?
Anyone having the problems described?


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