Canuck Audio Mart Hifi and Audio ForumCanuck Audio Mart Hifi and Audio Forum
It is currently Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:48 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 85 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:37 pm
Posts: 2400
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
newmusic wrote:
good sound wrote:
What can be done to help the industry thrive? I'm not sure, but I know for certain that sales of new equipment disappearing will kill the industry. Someone has to purchase new equipment. We can't all just keep buying only used gear.

It's funny we all talk about the audio industry dying, yet there are more and more new hi-end manufacturers popping up all the time and the bulk of these are producers of ultra hi-end gear, the mega buck stuff. There are way more hi-end audio manufacturers now then there has ever been. I recently read a report on the most recent Munich show. About two thirds of the brands exhibiting I have never heard of before and there are so many of them producing new gear in every category. There must be a market out there somewhere. Someone must be buying this stuff or there wouldn't be all of these new companies producing equipment. Perhaps this is more of a North American problem. Perhaps in other parts of the world such as Asia the hi-end is thriving. Someone has to be buying all this new equipment.



Absolutely yes.

The high end audio market in Asia is absolutely booming. 350 million new upper middle class in China alone. (not to mention thousands of new millionaires) All that money spent at wallmart and any other store for that matter, is going somewhere. (its not staying in North America)

I remember all the high end shops around Ontario in the 80's and 90's. Many went under before the turn of the millennium. With the advent of budget home theatre.
Even in the glory days of the 80's I new very, very few people who were actually interested in high end audio. Nothing has changed in that regard. It's just where the product is being sold has changed. On line sales and Asia are the new gold mines of the business.
All these recently born esoteric audio companies are making sales somewhere. Go where the money is ... perhaps not Canada.

Although even in Canada interest in high end audio equipment seems to be holding steady and maybe even increasing. (perhaps partially as a result of the vinyl resurgence?) Check the yearly increases in Taves attendance for example. Lots of middle aged and youngins there, mixing in with us grey hair audio nutters.


Likely most of the Taves visitors are there to just see what's happening in audio. They might buy some accessories or vinyl LP's for example, but most I know that have been to Taves do not spend much there or after the show by buying equipment they heard at the show.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:51 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:06 pm
Posts: 4868
Location: Montreal, QC, CA
+1 I think it's important to understand the technology as an aspect of the culture.

Stone wrote:
...for me...it's an essence thing...at its core Hifi is about quality...its disappearance or diminishing relevance is a reflection of the culture...when it comes to music playback...quality falls well short of convenience and portability...


Magnetic tape and the LP, post-war, put stereo into the culture. That technology was less convenient than MP3 (but nobody knew it), and a lot better-sounding.

The last 15 years have seen music played and distributed in a format that throws away most of its information. It can't do what recorded music did in the 50s and 60s. It can't touch you -- not the way it should, if the music playback at home is going to have money spent on it.

The low-res distribution pipe killed musical sensibility for a while. Not for the musicians, of course, but they weren't listening to good gear, ever. And I don't think MP3 would have had the effect it had, if CD hadn't fooled everyone first. I hope musical sensibility is coming back, but it's not here yet.

I don't mean to say analog beats CD. What I mean is that the lies about CD playback degraded the appreciation of music. That set the stage for people not to care that MP3 sounded bleh, especially the young ones.

I had friends who were over the moon about CD in the 80s, because, they said, of the purity of it. They meant the absence of clicks and pops. They never noticed that you couldn't even tap the beat to a CD. Of course popular culture didn't want them to notice.

There's no reason to care about music if the music you hear isn't worth caring about. CD and MP3 are flawed intermediate steps to a world of digital convergence. They were necessary steps, but to make the necessary money, they had to be sold on lies and hype. They couldn't be sold on quality. But the negative consequence was the loss of music that could move you.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:59 am
Posts: 1774
Location: Caledonia, ON, CA
Musicware4u wrote:
milag wrote:
good sound wrote:
What can be done to help the industry thrive? I'm not sure, but I know for certain that sales of new equipment disappearing will kill the industry. Someone has to purchase new equipment. We can't all just keep buying only used gear.

It's funny we all talk about the audio industry dying, yet there are more and more new hi-end manufacturers popping up all the time and the bulk of these are producers of ultra hi-end gear, the mega buck stuff. There are way more hi-end audio manufacturers now then there has ever been. I recently read a report on the most recent Munich show. About two thirds of the brands exhibiting I have never heard of before and there are so many of them producing new gear in every category. There must be a market out there somewhere. Someone must be buying this stuff or there wouldn't be all of these new companies producing equipment. Perhaps this is more of a North American problem. Perhaps in other parts of the world such as Asia the hi-end is thriving. Someone has to be buying all this new equipment.


"There are way more hi-end audio manufacturers now then there has ever been"

Actually, many of them have trouble making ends meet...


The pre and post baby boomers are not spending as much time with audio as they used to. They no longer collect vinyl cd or whatever. They are semi retired or retired and the wife or girlfriend won't just be content to sit and listen to music all day. The millennial was raised on ear buds and laptop speakers to listen to a small range of limited talented music compared to the music of the 60's-70's. The guy or lady in their 30's is somewhere between not caring and caring about the music they listen to. The 40 year old is the post boomer who got into music (if they were not heavily into sports), spend a few $$ on music in their teens to mid 20's, then stopped paying attention to audio except to throw on some tunes for background during dinner time. The rest of the time he's online checking his financial portfolio, business etc.. little or no time to sit and listen to a stereo that is not part of some surround sound system.

Two channel stereo started dieing out (where the masses are concerned) when pro-logic surround sound hit the market in the early 90's. Now, 30 years later, retail is slowly going away.. Music is online and digital. The older millennials started their foray into music primarily by downloading it for free. The next generation of potential music listeners (hard not to imagine how when all you got is Katy Perry, Taylor Swift, a handful of rappers etc..), don't care about music and have little awareness of the few retail audio stores that exist.

If I grew up a millennial without going back to the 50's, 60's 70's for rock, soul, blues etc.. if I didn't grow up listening to the Stylistics Coral sitar, Stevie Wonder's clavinet, JB soul, prog rock, hard bop jazz, music from a real talent, I wouldn't give a damn about getting into audio or sound quality either. Let's face it, what drives the audio industry has always been music. Take that away and what is the point?



So many false generalizations in this post I almost don't know where to begin.

First, the several baby boomers I know listen to just as much music as always. When I visit their homes, the classic sounds are always rockin the house. Still buying new speakers, turntables, vinyl and cd's. (downloading, not so much)

Second, the post boomer 40 year olds I know, including myself, are perhaps more into music than anyone. We had extensive exposure to 60-70's classics as children/youths, but (unlike certain boomers), we also recognize that an awful lot of great music has been made since then. Myself and several of my 40 something friends are vastly knowledgeable in all types of music from the beginning of the 20th century to the newest offerings of the current millennium.
'Stopped paying attention to music after their mid 20's'. :lol: I admit I know a few peeps who fit this description. But that's not at all a proper description for the majority of people I grew up with. Hell I still see some of my old high school and university buddies at live music venues all over the place. Once into music, always into music has been my experience.

Third, I happen to know a lot of millennials. And I meet new ones all the time. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of young kids who are just as into music as I am. True, at their young age they can't always afford to purchase good audio gear. (We have all been there) However I do try to advise them, and sometimes even help them to purchase quality used gear on the cheap. And the cool ones I meet are almost always interested in vinyl. They often complain that you can't tell anything about how a band really sounds by listening to mp3/youtube.

Fourth, I agree there is plenty of talent to be heard in music of the 1930's-70's. I grew up with that stuff. But if you think that new music is limited to 'Katy Perry, Tayler Swift and a few rappers'. Well then you must be living under a rock. (at least in terms of exposure to new music) Sure my twin 8 year old daughter enjoy KP and TS, but I could add 100 or more other artists to the list of their current faves.
I am an obsessive music collector/listener, and I can think of no time in history when music has been more creative (or better), than since the turn of the millennium. As large record companies lost their stranglehold, new artistry/creativity has been exploding, via the internet. No longer do you need to be 'signed' to a major label. Create something original, post it, and the masses will come. So much variety for a budding musicologist like myself, it's overwhelming. I attend music festivals and live performance every week, and I am constantly amazed at the original music that is being created by seriously talented, current artists, from all over the world.

'...a small range of limited talented music compared to the music of the 60's-70's...' :roll:
I guess I can understand if your tastes are locked into older music then it might seem not worth the effort to get out and discover the wonderful new art being created all around us.
For someone like myself who has spent decades appreciating the music of the past, but still remains open to new forms of creativity from the present, then there has honestly never been a more exciting time to explore new music than right now.
For those interested I would be happy to post a massive list of current artists who just might blow your mind. But perhaps that's another topic.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:18 pm
Posts: 330
Location: Thornhill, ON, CA
/\ /\ /\

Please do post that list!

_________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------'
No matter how much water you can soak up with a sponge, you can always break a window with a hammer!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:15 pm
Posts: 227
Location: Cambridge, ON, CA
Its all changed now ..........newer group of people having trouble with good full time work.
Hence less disposable income and interests
Once they get a 1k phone/plan with a minimum wage or slightly above job thats it.
I deal with a lot of 35 and under throughout my day and they have little or no disposable income


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:56 pm
Posts: 1222
Location: Milton, ON, CA
Good point, The middle class is disappearing.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:10 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:06 pm
Posts: 945
Location: hawkesbury, ON, CA
Toby wrote:
+1 I think it's important to understand the technology as an aspect of the culture.

Stone wrote:
...for me...it's an essence thing...at its core Hifi is about quality...its disappearance or diminishing relevance is a reflection of the culture...when it comes to music playback...quality falls well short of convenience and portability...


Magnetic tape and the LP, post-war, put stereo into the culture. That technology was less convenient than MP3 (but nobody knew it), and a lot better-sounding.

The last 15 years have seen music played and distributed in a format that throws away most of its information. It can't do what recorded music did in the 50s and 60s. It can't touch you -- not the way it should, if the music playback at home is going to have money spent on it.

The low-res distribution pipe killed musical sensibility for a while. Not for the musicians, of course, but they weren't listening to good gear, ever. And I don't think MP3 would have had the effect it had, if CD hadn't fooled everyone first. I hope musical sensibility is coming back, but it's not here yet.

I don't mean to say analog beats CD. What I mean is that the lies about CD playback degraded the appreciation of music. That set the stage for people not to care that MP3 sounded bleh, especially the young ones.

I had friends who were over the moon about CD in the 80s, because, they said, of the purity of it. They meant the absence of clicks and pops. They never noticed that you couldn't even tap the beat to a CD. Of course popular culture didn't want them to notice.

There's no reason to care about music if the music you hear isn't worth caring about. CD and MP3 are flawed intermediate steps to a world of digital convergence. They were necessary steps, but to make the necessary money, they had to be sold on lies and hype. They couldn't be sold on quality. But the negative consequence was the loss of music that could move you.

I have to partly disagree. early cd ,most sounded bad. but telarc with there 20 bits version, really came out to be great sounding version. and now dvd and sacd and bluray are leaving many vinyl in the dust. and yes I have turntable and I don t appreciate music from vinyl,as much as, a well made bluray in 5.1. or sacd in multi channel.
I specify 5.1 version because yes there are a few dvd , bluray, or sacd that are 2 channel only. and many don t sound that good, but that is because it was released in it original form , (compressed ,2 channel) most 5.1 where remastered and remixed thus having a remastering on new digital equipment. for sure if you take a 1980 s recording, without remastering on to high resolution format. it will most likely sound bad even if put on a bluray. when it is well done. a 5.1 recording version can really immerse the listeners into a live YOU ARE THERE feeling.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:20 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:18 pm
Posts: 330
Location: Thornhill, ON, CA
I see we have some pessimists here. And some super critical listeners for whom regular 2 channel doesn't satisfy!

I think quality 2 channel audio does exist and I don't see a problem that needs to be fixed. However I do appreciate that a 5.1 audio recording will offer certain ambiance as a result of the additional information, primarily spatial and related to delays and reverberation.

http://www.acontinuouslean.com/2013/12/ ... ios-sound/

_________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------'
No matter how much water you can soak up with a sponge, you can always break a window with a hammer!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:14 pm
Posts: 653
Location: Pickering, ON, CA
I have been in and out of audio since I turned 14 and got my first summer job. I'm not approaching 40 and must say that the biggest turn off for me is the fact that with each generation of audio equipment, the price of entry seems to increase almost exponentially.

I remember in the early '90's there seemed to be a lot of equipment that was say only double the price of standard consumer level stuff. Now, $10k amps and pres seem almost ubiquitous. I have been fairly successful in my career, but just don't want to spend this much money, especially knowing how outrageous the markups are. I'm sorry, but $5k for a music streamer just seems dumb to me.

Also, as another user said, the attitude of many that all of today's music is garbage is rather off putting.

Maybe one day I'll get back into hi-fi, but for now I just can't be bothered


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:43 am
Posts: 936
Location: Burlington, ON, CA
I will be intrigued to see if the TV market suffers as the audio market has.

I am a GenXr (late 40's now) and got into music around 5 when I started playing an instrument. I played something (violin, stand up bass, electric bass, trombone) until I was 19 and went off to University.

There I bought my first (only?) new high end (to me) audio system. Ran about 5K in 1993.

Since then I have done a LOT of used buying and selling, and DIY.

I mention the TV market only because a LOT of the folks I work with are in their early-mid 20's. They not only don't buy audio gear, but they don't buy TV's either. They mock me for my 60 plasma hung on the wall in my HT/pool room. They all gravitate to tablets or phones for all their media. Earbuds rule the day, though many will buy upmarket headphones, so all is not lost...

I started collecting music when I was about 10, and stopped about 5 years ago. I have collected a lot of music and have ripped it all (yes I still have the cd's around - stored away in boxes in the basement) and I serve it to my systems in the house. I don't stream any music from outside the house (Spotify, Pandora, Tidal etc), and will listen to the radio when in the car.

Mind you a lot of the car listening is top 40 (I have teen daughters), so there is some music I have lost track of - ie the new rock, post grunge whatever is on Q107 or CFNY when they are not playing the stuff I recognize.

I enjoy music a lot, and play it during pool play and often when I work from home I have music on non stop. I do still listen critically at times, but that has waned over the past 10 years.

I see a time coming when speakers will be wireless (OK they will need power cables), self powered, and include a DAC. I believe there are some in existence today (Meridian for sure, and likely others), but that style (ie no receiver, cd player, streamer, stack of gear "in the middle") will come to dominate it all once the tech settles and is affordable.

I am lucky enough now to have a dedicated room. When we retire and eventually downsize there is no way that happens again.

So perhaps headphones will be my future too! I already enjoy NuForce HEM8's on the go with my iPhone...

_________________
Give me a musical system and a PC front end

Mark in Burlington


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:29 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:06 pm
Posts: 4868
Location: Montreal, QC, CA
We don't disagree that much. :wink:

zon001 wrote:
Toby wrote:
...The low-res distribution pipe killed musical sensibility for a while. Not for the musicians, of course, but they weren't listening to good gear, ever. And I don't think MP3 would have had the effect it had, if CD hadn't fooled everyone first. I hope musical sensibility is coming back, but it's not here yet...

I have to partly disagree... now dvd and sacd and bluray are leaving many vinyl in the dust. ... when it is well done. a 5.1 recording version can really immerse the listeners into a live YOU ARE THERE feeling.


I agree with you that there are great digital recordings to be heard on great gear. A well-produced and mastered 24/192 played back on an R2R DAC like an Audiomat or maybe an Audio Note or the (unfortunately named) Schiitt can sound astonishing... in a way that sounds, to me, different from vinyl, but pretty much as interesting.

I think sensitivity to recorded music is coming back, because things like the above are becoming available. I hope it continues. I'm just sorry it ever left. It was too much to pay, for the convenient distribution we have now.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:06 pm
Posts: 945
Location: hawkesbury, ON, CA
i feel that in the 70s people where anxious to buy the latest lp, and ounce they bought them they listen to the hole album.
but ounce sony brought up things like Walkman and now ,other device like iphone that you can download a lot of music from god knows where on internet, (mostly for free) . the more songs you want,the worst the sound get. so In light of these things. there is probably more people listening to music with there phone device, today then there is audiophile music ,being played somewhere.
so if that new generation is perfectly happy with the (crappy sound) these devise give them. there is certainly something to worry about if I was a high end stereo company.
people today are more worried about having thousand s of titles on hand , and wireless cheap speaker in every room of the house, to be able to listen to there music from there iPhone.
I personnaly don t have a I phone, never will, and never own a Walkman as a kid, and always been trying to be at the cutting edge of audiophile music format. it cost more, but so much more rewarding.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:29 pm
Posts: 22
Location: North York, ON, CA
MKReid wrote:
Also, as another user said, the attitude of many that all of today's music is garbage is rather off putting.


I'm 65 and I agree that the statement disturbing.

Some genres of today's music doesn't interest me, but then every now and again, I find myself toe tapping to some Rap music. (Who'd have thunk it?) There is some heavy metal (from my wilder years?) I still enjoy, and there is some post millennium electronic music I find interesting as well. Does that mean I'm brain dead?

Jazz, Oh ya!, Swing, I can listen to all day, 50's rock'n'roll can be simplistic fun. I was a teenager during the sixties counter culture, and some of that music still resonates today. Seventies disco . . , well I worked in advertising back then, so what can I say, except it brings back great memories. (And some Monday morning, not so great memories.)

The eighties were loud, but with some great rhythm basics to me. (Hints of future rap?) And lets not forget the classics. To me, nothing sounds as soothing as a well recorded piano concerto. And to lift my spirits, a Flamenco, or good old fashioned down-east fiddle music. Give me the Barra MacNeils any day.

So what's not to love about music? All kinds, including current.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:17 pm
Posts: 2306
Location: Winnipeg, MB, CA
can't discount the effects of marketing as well.
you don't find millennials, they find you. Apple, Bose and Sonos learned this.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:27 pm
Posts: 552
Location: Stratford, ON, CA
mpublicover wrote:
can't discount the effects of marketing as well.
you don't find millennials, they find you. Apple, Bose and Sonos learned this.


Exactly this. Devialet can be found in Apple stores everywhere. Sitting next to the latest bluetooth speaker, its easy for a consumer to see why a strange looking orb from a company in France might be worthwhile. Millennials love quality, and love music, and hate being lied to. I've witnessed many young people in hi-fi shops where the old shop owner is trying to sell the benefits of expensive power cord and speaker cables and you can see them shrink back from all the bull****. If hifi wants to survive, it has to be through good honest products. Companies like schiit, peachtree, blue jeans, and harbeth will live to see another day.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 85 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: msommers and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group