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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Location: Ontario, ON, CA
I saw a YouTube diy room treatment panel video using towels in a wood frame, complete with sound measurements. The readings were quite impressive.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:50 pm 
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Location: Hamilton, ON, CA
wtf22 wrote:
I saw a YouTube diy room treatment panel video using towels in a wood frame, complete with sound measurements. The readings were quite impressive.


handy if you spill your beer...


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:23 pm 
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Location: Muskoka, ON, CA
All good advice above. Here's what I would do, in order of effectiveness and bang for buck.

Rug with thick underpad, covering as much floor as convenient...a huge must.

Speakers out from back wall, prolly about 18-24".

Tame that bass with some HD diy tube traps. This is easy and cheap, and will give oodles of focus.
Get 4 48" lengths(or cut down 8 footers, is easy, they are cardboard) SONO TUBES,12". Fill with
anything sorta soft and absorbent.....a half roll of scrunched up paper towel,even newspaper works great. Stand up in each corner, maybe lifted off the floor an inch or so, use a couple 12" lengths of pine 1x1, or anything really...get them up. If you're happy with the results, you can cover the SONO tubes in fabric later...something felt like. Real easy,these, and can make huge impact. Experiment with stuffing,placement(2...4,2in each of back corners etc). After the rug,single best tweak.

Curtain on front wall,as mentioned above. Mine are the 'backed' ones, room darkening....cheap from Walmart. I would consider for back wall too, depending on how far couch is from it.

I have real difficulty with most wall treatments....I just don't wanna live in a padded cell!, so a less intrusive, but maybe a bit less effective way is Venetian blinds, again cheap from Walmart. I see u have a door in play, so the binds might be a good option, placed on side walls as mentioned previously ( mirror trick). When dropped down,partially opened, they do a good job of breaking up side-reflections. Us ol'time guys would line our rooms with endless shelves of vinyl...same sorta deal with the blinds.

Replace the gear stand with a rack. I can guarantee that thing is resonating like crazy.

I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned the Rotel. That one is one of their better efforts, and I am guessing u bought it for its digital connect ability , but every one of their amps drives my crazy with dry brittle, almost painful, highs. A simple warmer amp and a reasonably priced DAC would be on my list.

My 2cents !


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:47 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:22 am
Posts: 180
Location: Guelph, ON, CA
mac wrote:
All good advice above. Here's what I would do, in order of effectiveness and bang for buck.

Rug with thick underpad, covering as much floor as convenient...a huge must.

Speakers out from back wall, prolly about 18-24".

Tame that bass with some HD diy tube traps. This is easy and cheap, and will give oodles of focus.
Get 4 48" lengths(or cut down 8 footers, is easy, they are cardboard) SONO TUBES,12". Fill with
anything sorta soft and absorbent.....a half roll of scrunched up paper towel,even newspaper works great. Stand up in each corner, maybe lifted off the floor an inch or so, use a couple 12" lengths of pine 1x1, or anything really...get them up. If you're happy with the results, you can cover the SONO tubes in fabric later...something felt like. Real easy,these, and can make huge impact. Experiment with stuffing,placement(2...4,2in each of back corners etc). After the rug,single best tweak.

Curtain on front wall,as mentioned above. Mine are the 'backed' ones, room darkening....cheap from Walmart. I would consider for back wall too, depending on how far couch is from it.

I have real difficulty with most wall treatments....I just don't wanna live in a padded cell!, so a less intrusive, but maybe a bit less effective way is Venetian blinds, again cheap from Walmart. I see u have a door in play, so the binds might be a good option, placed on side walls as mentioned previously ( mirror trick). When dropped down,partially opened, they do a good job of breaking up side-reflections. Us ol'time guys would line our rooms with endless shelves of vinyl...same sorta deal with the blinds.

Replace the gear stand with a rack. I can guarantee that thing is resonating like crazy.

I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned the Rotel. That one is one of their better efforts, and I am guessing u bought it for its digital connect ability , but every one of their amps drives my crazy with dry brittle, almost painful, highs. A simple warmer amp and a reasonably priced DAC would be on my list.

My 2cents !


The Venetian blinds are interesting, and thanks for specifying backed curtains. I don't mind room treatment panels as long as I can get a color that blends with the walls, but it's a small room and less stuff on the walls does help the space.

I'm missing the connection between a gear rack and brightness...not questioning the premise but curious about how it all works together.

I bought it because I liked the sound of my B&W bookshelf speakers and wanted an upgrade in sound and functionality from my old harman kardon AVR. The synergy between B&W and Rotel is largely documented - I'm not sure what you think I should put in the RA-12's place in order to get the same amount of function, compatibility, & ease of use without spending 50% more..


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:36 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004 2:52 am
Posts: 266
Location: Muskoka, ON, CA
ruecatinat wrote:
mac wrote:
All good advice above. Here's what I would do, in order of effectiveness and bang for buck.

Rug with thick underpad, covering as much floor as convenient...a huge must.

Speakers out from back wall, prolly about 18-24".

Tame that bass with some HD diy tube traps. This is easy and cheap, and will give oodles of focus.
Get 4 48" lengths(or cut down 8 footers, is easy, they are cardboard) SONO TUBES,12". Fill with
anything sorta soft and absorbent.....a half roll of scrunched up paper towel,even newspaper works great. Stand up in each corner, maybe lifted off the floor an inch or so, use a couple 12" lengths of pine 1x1, or anything really...get them up. If you're happy with the results, you can cover the SONO tubes in fabric later...something felt like. Real easy,these, and can make huge impact. Experiment with stuffing,placement(2...4,2in each of back corners etc). After the rug,single best tweak.

Curtain on front wall,as mentioned above. Mine are the 'backed' ones, room darkening....cheap from Walmart. I would consider for back wall too, depending on how far couch is from it.

I have real difficulty with most wall treatments....I just don't wanna live in a padded cell!, so a less intrusive, but maybe a bit less effective way is Venetian blinds, again cheap from Walmart. I see u have a door in play, so the binds might be a good option, placed on side walls as mentioned previously ( mirror trick). When dropped down,partially opened, they do a good job of breaking up side-reflections. Us ol'time guys would line our rooms with endless shelves of vinyl...same sorta deal with the blinds.

Replace the gear stand with a rack. I can guarantee that thing is resonating like crazy.

I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned the Rotel. That one is one of their better efforts, and I am guessing u bought it for its digital connect ability , but every one of their amps drives my crazy with dry brittle, almost painful, highs. A simple warmer amp and a reasonably priced DAC would be on my list.

My 2cents !


The Venetian blinds are interesting, and thanks for specifying backed curtains. I don't mind room treatment panels as long as I can get a color that blends with the walls, but it's a small room and less stuff on the walls does help the space.

I'm missing the connection between a gear rack and brightness...not questioning the premise but curious about how it all works together.

I bought it because I liked the sound of my B&W bookshelf speakers and wanted an upgrade in sound and functionality from my old harman kardon AVR. The synergy between B&W and Rotel is largely documented - I'm not sure what you think I should put in the RA-12's place in order to get the same amount of function, compatibility, & ease of use without spending 50% more..


I guess the point of the Rotel idea was that if it is the source of the brightness, and in my experience with the brand it could well be, there is little you can do to tame it. It was my last consideration on the list, and maybe the most costly, depending on how you shop......so try the other stuff first.
From your pics and post, what I see (not hear) are some issues that are contributing to a general lack of balance in the room. I think you need to add focus, generate a decent soundstage, and then you will be better able to asses the system as a whole. Enclosed cabinets are notorious for messing up sound as they tend to resonate almost like they are their own speaker. You will find most hi-end racks are open affairs, usually heavy, usually connected to the floor quite solidly (spikes are common). Try this...it's for free!.....
Pull out all the stuff in the cabinet and add some weight (sand bags maybe?..anything really) and throw in some pillows or towels. Then have a listen.
All these tweaks are incremental in nature, and not one single effort is gonna heal your problem(s). Synergy is the best word here. So is experimentation. Most of the stuff I mentioned are cheap to buy, or U have the stuff around. When you mess around with it, you can discover simple solutions, and then maybe go to the more costly, but nicer to live, with remedies.
Point in case...years ago when I was experimenting with isolating vibrations of amps, CD players etc., there was marketed this ball-bearing loaded shelf system. My brain kinda thought it was a cool idea....but it cost hundreds of $$$. So I went to Canadian Tire, got a bag of big ball bearings ($5 I think) and used some door latches (the thingy that the strike goes thru into your door frame ($1.50 each) to hold the bearings in place, and set up the same thing.....all for under $10. Worked a treat too, but was ugly to look at, and made the CD player move around whenever touched. I ended up buying little cones instead, but it taught me how simple, and effective, some of these tweaks can be.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:46 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:22 am
Posts: 180
Location: Guelph, ON, CA
mac wrote:
ruecatinat wrote:
mac wrote:
All good advice above. Here's what I would do, in order of effectiveness and bang for buck.

Rug with thick underpad, covering as much floor as convenient...a huge must.

Speakers out from back wall, prolly about 18-24".

Tame that bass with some HD diy tube traps. This is easy and cheap, and will give oodles of focus.
Get 4 48" lengths(or cut down 8 footers, is easy, they are cardboard) SONO TUBES,12". Fill with
anything sorta soft and absorbent.....a half roll of scrunched up paper towel,even newspaper works great. Stand up in each corner, maybe lifted off the floor an inch or so, use a couple 12" lengths of pine 1x1, or anything really...get them up. If you're happy with the results, you can cover the SONO tubes in fabric later...something felt like. Real easy,these, and can make huge impact. Experiment with stuffing,placement(2...4,2in each of back corners etc). After the rug,single best tweak.

Curtain on front wall,as mentioned above. Mine are the 'backed' ones, room darkening....cheap from Walmart. I would consider for back wall too, depending on how far couch is from it.

I have real difficulty with most wall treatments....I just don't wanna live in a padded cell!, so a less intrusive, but maybe a bit less effective way is Venetian blinds, again cheap from Walmart. I see u have a door in play, so the binds might be a good option, placed on side walls as mentioned previously ( mirror trick). When dropped down,partially opened, they do a good job of breaking up side-reflections. Us ol'time guys would line our rooms with endless shelves of vinyl...same sorta deal with the blinds.

Replace the gear stand with a rack. I can guarantee that thing is resonating like crazy.

I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned the Rotel. That one is one of their better efforts, and I am guessing u bought it for its digital connect ability , but every one of their amps drives my crazy with dry brittle, almost painful, highs. A simple warmer amp and a reasonably priced DAC would be on my list.

My 2cents !


The Venetian blinds are interesting, and thanks for specifying backed curtains. I don't mind room treatment panels as long as I can get a color that blends with the walls, but it's a small room and less stuff on the walls does help the space.

I'm missing the connection between a gear rack and brightness...not questioning the premise but curious about how it all works together.

I bought it because I liked the sound of my B&W bookshelf speakers and wanted an upgrade in sound and functionality from my old harman kardon AVR. The synergy between B&W and Rotel is largely documented - I'm not sure what you think I should put in the RA-12's place in order to get the same amount of function, compatibility, & ease of use without spending 50% more..


I guess the point of the Rotel idea was that if it is the source of the brightness, and in my experience with the brand it could well be, there is little you can do to tame it. It was my last consideration on the list, and maybe the most costly, depending on how you shop......so try the other stuff first.
From your pics and post, what I see (not hear) are some issues that are contributing to a general lack of balance in the room. I think you need to add focus, generate a decent soundstage, and then you will be better able to asses the system as a whole. Enclosed cabinets are notorious for messing up sound as they tend to resonate almost like they are their own speaker. You will find most hi-end racks are open affairs, usually heavy, usually connected to the floor quite solidly (spikes are common). Try this...it's for free!.....
Pull out all the stuff in the cabinet and add some weight (sand bags maybe?..anything really) and throw in some pillows or towels. Then have a listen.
All these tweaks are incremental in nature, and not one single effort is gonna heal your problem(s). Synergy is the best word here. So is experimentation. Most of the stuff I mentioned are cheap to buy, or U have the stuff around. When you mess around with it, you can discover simple solutions, and then maybe go to the more costly, but nicer to live, with remedies.
Point in case...years ago when I was experimenting with isolating vibrations of amps, CD players etc., there was marketed this ball-bearing loaded shelf system. My brain kinda thought it was a cool idea....but it cost hundreds of $$$. So I went to Canadian Tire, got a bag of big ball bearings ($5 I think) and used some door latches (the thingy that the strike goes thru into your door frame ($1.50 each) to hold the bearings in place, and set up the same thing.....all for under $10. Worked a treat too, but was ugly to look at, and made the CD player move around whenever touched. I ended up buying little cones instead, but it taught me how simple, and effective, some of these tweaks can be.


I guess it is time for better gear storage and some Vibrapod/Vibracones and a good padded rug.

This is all a good start, as I'd rather prep the room so I can determine in a better environment if I'm still okay with my equipment...


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:24 pm 
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I'm also new to this. Don't quite have the cash to dive full in just yet but have spoken with GIK and am on a path to something. Wondering though, for someone on a budget &/or building piece by piece, is it "best" to start with corner bass traps -or- panels behind the speakers? This would be in addition to a large, heavy rug in the middle of the listening area.


( If this is too much of a hijack I can start a dedicated thread w/ room pics... )


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:02 pm 
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LeeBx wrote:
I'm also new to this. Don't quite have the cash to dive full in just yet but have spoken with GIK and am on a path to something. Wondering though, for someone on a budget &/or building piece by piece, is it "best" to start with corner bass traps -or- panels behind the speakers? This would be in addition to a large, heavy rug in the middle of the listening area.


( If this is too much of a hijack I can start a dedicated thread w/ room pics... )


That would be largely up to you LeeBx and your perception of the acoustic shortcomings of your room. Is lumpy low frequencies where some low notes blast out and drone on out of proportion to others (due to uncontrolled standing wave behavior) an issue? Or perhaps its vague imaging and high frequencies that become harsh and over powering as the volume increases? If the former, work on the placement of both speakers and listening position to minimize their interaction with your room's inevitable primary resonant frequencies (associated with length, width, and height dimensions). Then add some substantial corner bass trapping (Google: "Superchunk Bass Traps" for a cost effective DIY solution). If the latter, mount some minimum 2'x4'x4" fibrous broadband absorber panels at the primary and secondary sidewall reflection points. If practical household constraints have dictated a listening position close to the rear wall, be sure to put up another couple of panels on the wall behind your head. If you are handy these framed fibrous semi-rigid mineral wool, fiberglass broadband, or recycled cotton panels can be DIYed. Alternatively they can be purchased quite affordably from several vendors that advertise here on CAM. Just avoid so-called "acoustic foam" products entirely. They are much less effective.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:08 pm 
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Posts: 572
Location: Athabasca, AB, CA
Ethan Winer(RealTraps)has a lot of information on making your own traps.
He also had a huge thread on Music player forum under acoustics I believe,he not on there any more,but there's at least 300 or threads.
Gik sells DIY assemblies also,just the shipping from US to hear is a killer...30% more +US/CAN dollar difference.
I use a combo of RT's modules and GIK Alpha 6A's,as I'm not a DIY.
Gearslutz is another,just go to forums down to studio building/acoustics or bass traps,acoustics panels..foam.
All the above are loaded with info.....happy trapping as it's the best thing you can do is don't forget the room.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:39 pm 
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Location: gatineau, QC, CA
I would recommend moving your speakers 3 feets from the back wall and 2 feet from the side walls. Then move sitting position 8 feet from your speakers. Toe in your speakers to aim to the side of your head. This set-up will minimize early reflextion from your walls. After, you may want to experiment with various absortion material... Pat


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:11 pm 
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Location: Ontario, ON, CA
When I was growing up in England we had something that was a throwback to medieval times. My mother brought it with her from the former Yugoslavia and we hung it on a wall in the bedroom. I think we actually had two of them. They were about 5' by 7' approx. And I bet they would have tamed some of the reflections in today's rooms. What were they?
Tapestries of European nature scenery. They felt like velour but thicker. I know that today they would be cheesy looking but at the time they took the place of paintings in some homes.
Old school room treatments.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:35 am 
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I'd move the position of the door closer to one end of the room to start, if possible. That would give you a ton of flexibility to do whatever you need to do. Just sayin' :)
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:50 am 
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In addition to moving the speakers forward I've also found that moving my listening position away from the back wall a bit helps too. Believe me I am not a handyman but making 4' x 2' panels with Roxul fibreboard is very simple and perhaps much more cost effective if you're on a budget. The money you save can be spent on other audio upgrades.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:31 am 
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I think a carpet is a great place to start. But I also think the B&Ws are a bit big for that space (which is on the small side). You can spend a lot of time trying to shoehorn them in with acoustic treatments, or you can look for a speaker that has been designed to excel in exactly that type of situation. Consider a sealed speaker such as the Spendor S3/5r - a sealed design with well controlled bass (no need for traps), rolled off top end (brightness reduced) and nearfield placement (less than 10 feet). It's also way more musical than the B&W.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:37 am 
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hollinger wrote:
I think a carpet is a great place to start. But I also think the B&Ws are a bit big for that space (which is on the small side). You can spend a lot of time trying to shoehorn them in with acoustic treatments, or you can look for a speaker that has been designed to excel in exactly that type of situation. Consider a sealed speaker such as the Spendor S3/5r - a sealed design with well controlled bass (no need for traps), rolled off top end (brightness reduced) and nearfield placement (less than 10 feet). It's also way more musical than the B&W.


If you're replying to me, since I made this post I have went through...

- 3-4 different power sources
- 4 different pairs of speakers

I've also added a rug, placed concrete paving blocks underneath the spiked floorstanders (now Mission M73i) to isolate, thrown up some rudimentary foam on the wall and now have a dedicated audio rack.

Could still use to mess with some bass traps though!


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