Canuck Audio Mart Hifi and Audio ForumCanuck Audio Mart Hifi and Audio Forum
It is currently Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:30 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Room treatment services
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:10 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 7:40 pm
Posts: 45
Location: Newcastle, ON, CA
Hello can someone recommend a company in the Oshawa area (or that would travel to Newcastle, ON) that will come in to measure and make suggestions on room treatments (eg. bass traps, diffusers) for a two channel stereo system?

Is there anything I should be looking out for in terms of methods they use to measure the acoustics of the room? And what would be a reasonable charge for this service?

Thanks for any responses.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:52 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:54 am
Posts: 405
Location: Markham, ON, CA
May I ask what is your budget range, your room size and what is the problem you are experiencing right now?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 7:40 pm
Posts: 45
Location: Newcastle, ON, CA
dts-99 wrote:
May I ask what is your budget range, your room size and what is the problem you are experiencing right now?


I don't know what a realistic budget would be but I was hoping to keep it under $500. Also, asthetics will have to play a huge role in my decision to implement any suggestions. The room is a living/dining room 28' x 11' but the stereo is situated in the "living rm". The speakers are along the long wall about 5ft apart flanking a hutch and 12" from the rear wall. The right speaker is 4' from the side wall/drapes and there is nothing on the left side which is opened to the foyer and dining rm area. I sit about 7.5' away on a couch. the entire floor is hardwood except for small area rug in the living rm.

Repositioning of the speakers is limited due to the furniture however I could move them back and forth as needed for critical listening.

Soundwise I'm actually pretty happy at this point however since changing components I've realized that what I thought was good could always be made a little better. It makes sense to me that room treatment can be very important piece of the puzzle. Up to this point I have done nothing in terms of room acoustics.

I'm surprised how much better/different the sound quality can be with various component combinations. I am a novice audiofile and have been "experimenting" over the past two years. I just wanted to make sure that I've optimized my system in its current state.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 11:59 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 9:13 pm
Posts: 239
Location: Waterloo, ON, CA
With all due respect, if your budget is under $500, you will be lucky to get a qualified consultant to travel to your house, take meaningful measurements and suggest a product and placement, let alone actually be able to purchase anything.

For $500 your best bet is to either build some DIY panels (just search the forum) or pick up a small kit from Primacoustics or the like. Start by putting them in the area of first reflections.
Drapes, rugs, couches, basically anything soft, all help as well.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 7:40 pm
Posts: 45
Location: Newcastle, ON, CA
Neal C wrote:
With all due respect, if your budget is under $500, you will be lucky to get a qualified consultant to travel to your house, take meaningful measurements and suggest a product and placement, let alone actually be able to purchase anything.



No offence taken, I had no idea of the costs involved. I may very well just try some DIY items as you mentioned. Thanks.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 1:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 9:13 pm
Posts: 239
Location: Waterloo, ON, CA
A further word of encouragement.....

I personally have the training and ability to take very sophisticated acoustic measurements (which is useful in my professional life); however I have not bothered to even measure my own living/listening room. The reason for this? Laziness? Maybe. More importantly, I simply added acoustic treatments until my setup sounded great to me. It makes a huge difference. If you were designing a new theatre or concert hall, then all the science is great, but in my personal opinion and experience, you can get to an excellent result in your living room by just using your ears.....after all, our ears are what this hobby is all about.

Jon


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:39 pm
Posts: 1683
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Neal C wrote:
A further word of encouragement.....

I personally have the training and ability to take very sophisticated acoustic measurements (which is useful in my professional life); however I have not bothered to even measure my own living/listening room. The reason for this? Laziness? Maybe. More importantly, I simply added acoustic treatments until my setup sounded great to me. It makes a huge difference. If you were designing a new theatre or concert hall, then all the science is great, but in my personal opinion and experience, you can get to an excellent result in your living room by just using your ears.....after all, our ears are what this hobby is all about.

Jon


With all due respect, if you really know what you're talking about, you wouldn't be making such suggestions. Yes, simply adding panels and bass traps to the room will make a huge difference without any measurements. BUT. The positions of the panels and traps have to be correct, otherwise there will be a noticeable change, which will make no sense. It's like saying, oh I am going to install a cartridge any way I want and it will sound different - oh yes, it will. I have yet to see any professional setting up any room 'by ear' LOL.

To the OP, read up on the DIY panels and room setups - there are great writeups on AK, DIY Audio and other forums. Also, big panel manufacturers and acoustic treatment companies do offer free evaluation of your rooms and will suggest proper products and locations. You send them your room measurements and layouts, and they will provide free proper analysis. You can easily DIY panels based on their analysis.

Some examples:
http://www.atsacoustics.com/page--Free- ... --ora.html
http://www.auralex.com/praf/

Price-wise, if you care about appearance, even DIY panels can get pricey - look up Guilford of Maine fabric manufacturer and their products.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:55 pm 
Offline
Premium User

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:46 am
Posts: 77
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
http://www.musonic.com

wouldn't hurt to give them a call and see if they might be able to help


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:14 am
Posts: 1465
Location: St.Catharines, ON, CA
I did a lot of reading but ultimately followed the ideas of GIK room treatment packages.Almost any acoustic tech would suggest bass trapping corners, a long with first and secondary reflection points on side walls and ceiling.the point behind your listening position is also a first reflection point.I followed the example of the following pictorial and the result was the biggest upgrade in audio I have ever experienced.


Attachments:
GIK_labeled.jpg
GIK_labeled.jpg [ 133.22 KiB | Viewed 2244 times ]
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:39 pm
Posts: 1683
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Itsnotluck wrote:
I did a lot of reading but ultimately followed the ideas of GIK room treatment packages.Almost any acoustic tech would suggest bass trapping corners, a long with first and secondary reflection points on side walls and ceiling.the point behind your listening position is also a first reflection point.I followed the example of the following pictorial and the result was the biggest upgrade in audio I have ever experienced.


This is a great picture with every reflection position covered. The only suggestion I'd have on top of this is not to do everything at the same time. Sometimes you can overtreat the room and it will sound super-dead and horrible. Start with absorber panels behind the speakers, and absorbers or diffusers behind the seating position. Then if the room response is still not linear enough, add absorbers at first reflection points on the walls, then ceiling (ceiling has first reflection points too); only then put absorbers at 2nd reflection points if needed.

I have panels at every listed position in my room (12x20), except my absorbers on the ceiling are very thin, and no bass traps right now (using active equalization for twin subs). The change is huge (measurably and by ear).


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 7:40 pm
Posts: 45
Location: Newcastle, ON, CA
Thought I'd write a follow-up in case it may be helpful to someone. Much thanks to CAM member Serenity_now (Trevor) for giving me a detailed plan. My experience with his audio services was very positive and the results extremely rewarding. I wasn't sure what to expect but was intrigued by many discussions of the benefits of room treatments. I can tell you that this project is the most cost effective upgrade I've done and am very pleased.

My space is not a dedicated listening room yet Trevor was able to work around my non-traditional set up and imposed aesthetic limitations. His assessment was to deal mainly with flutter echo and reduce decay time of the mid/high frequencies. First reflections and bass trapping was not really an issue due to the room layout. His predictions were correct because EVERY song I listen to sounds better: stereo separation, dynamics, clarity and timbre of voices and instruments, bass clarity.

I ended up making five 4'x2'x3" wall panels (1 1/2" Roxul Rockboard) and two 3'x2'x4" SBIR traps behind the speakers (3" Roxul Safe'n'Sound). I am waiting on some white speaker cloth to finish a cloud 70"x34"x4" (Roxul S'n'S) to span a small enclosed vaulted ceiling cavity. Total material costs ~$300.


Attachments:
DSCF7563.JPG
DSCF7563.JPG [ 256.99 KiB | Viewed 1839 times ]
DSCF7519.JPG
DSCF7519.JPG [ 324.97 KiB | Viewed 1839 times ]
DSCF7517.JPG
DSCF7517.JPG [ 309.31 KiB | Viewed 1839 times ]
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 2:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:17 pm
Posts: 759
Location: Riverview, NB, CA
Thanks for the update! That looks good. I have been thinking of doing the same for a while now but haven't gotten it to the top of my list yet. I'm going to have to get it done soon although I will be limited in my abilities to add panels in our living room. What did you make the frames out of?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 2:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:09 pm
Posts: 1239
Location: Sherbrooke, QC, CA
What happened to all the programs one could find on the web that would analyze the room based on its measurements?

Or is that way too scientific for 'philes these days?

Like it would prevent anyone from fine tuning by ear.

Like if one hand doesn't wash the other.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:37 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:26 pm
Posts: 2709
Location: Airdrie, AB, CA
PBB wrote:
What happened to all the programs one could find on the web that would analyze the room based on its measurements?

Or is that way too scientific for 'philes these days?

Like it would prevent anyone from fine tuning by ear.

Like if one hand doesn't wash the other.


If you read PERRLA's update you'd see that he engaged CAM member Serenity_now for some assistance with the plan. S_n's posts during his time here have shown an advanced interest in room acoustics and measurements. I'd suspect he even has some "programs one could find on the web". :wink: http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/vi ... 07#p663307

Thanks PERRLA for the update, good to hear you're enjoying the results.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 7:40 pm
Posts: 45
Location: Newcastle, ON, CA
David P wrote:
I'm going to have to get it done soon although I will be limited in my abilities to add panels in our living room. What did you make the frames out of?


I looked into acoustic printed fabric (stock and custom prints) but it was quite costly. Ended up using cheap burlap for now and my wife may stencil something on them, eg. with a musical theme or even words. I just used cheap home depot pine and followed some DIY posts. Just be careful to check the wood is straight by looking down the length end to end. For a guy that is not particularly handy, I think they turned out quite well.

I haven't had time to actually measure anything. Serenity_now kept things in layman's terms for me due to my limited knowledge on the subject. If you want to get technical:


"If you are using an iphone/ipad I would highly suggest using the AudioTools app by Studio Six digital. It is calibrated specifically for i-device microphones and will give you a better indication of actual response using dual mono pink noise and sweeps. For your test material you can set the graph to retain peak levels so you can run each tone individually and see them plotted against one another at a single location. This gives a crude indication of response at one location. A raw spl meter measurement with tones is good for relative comparisons of channel levels but cannot be used to judge how music content will load a room. We must also consider the effect impulses have and decay behavior.

Focus on measuring the behavior of the tones at your listening location only. Measuring the low frequency response over a large area is beneficial for multiple seating arrangements as in a home theater (where multiple subwoofers can be deployed.) The objective here is to ensure all frequencies below around 300hz are within +/- 5 db or so at your listening location. The purpose of the traps in this room is to reduce the coloration that results from delayed indirect sound re-combining out of phase with the direct sound energy. The peak trap serves to reduce mid to high frequency parabolic flutter echo and low frequency ringing (boom.) Deep swings at low frequencies are normal in everyone's listening room. My intent with this room setup was to avoid them as much as possible with your location. Your measurements should confirm this if the predictions were correct.

Proper measurements involve many different plots over the entire frequency range simultaneously. These are impulses, sweeps or dual mono pink noise measurements. Sine wave tones can show you where a severe null location prevents the reproduction of a given frequency in your room at a given location but is not good for much else (measuring high Q areas.)

I would definitely still go ahead with the package recommendations. The only thing that has changed is the polarity of the location I predicted due to the volume of areas outside the room. It is safely away from your listening location. No worries. :) It's going to sound great."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group