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 Post subject: Re: Fully active x- over
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:30 am 
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Canadiansnowland wrote:
This topic has really caught my interest. In my mind active has always made sense. However a few things need clarification. Like anything quality makes a difference; there are decent active setups and not so decent. Lets talk dollars just on the crossover for now. What are we looking at in terms of price and features for an active crossover?

I bought a DBX 234SX crossover, which can do 4-way mono or 2 and 3-way stereo, for all of around $350 brand new. The construction is pretty straight forward with an input buffer, active 24db LR network and output buffer/balancer using NE5532 chips throughout, if I recall. Quality is decent and the pots are reasonably well calibrated between channels if they're not set too far to the extremes. I have a bit of a hiss issue as I have it connected to single ended amps but the noise is not terribly obtrusive. Sound quality is what it is....it's hard to judge without comparing directly to other units but I believe you get what you pay for. Still, it's not bad to play around with and the cost of entry is easily affordable.

I don't see the point of adding an equalizer as bass/mid/treble adjustments can be done by setting the output levels and crossover points of the appropriate bands. For example, if you want more low bass you lower the bass/mid crossover point; if you want more high bass you raise it. One thing to remember is that these adjustments have to be done at the volumes you normally listen to using your reference source.

As has been mentioned, going active means losing some of the filtering that may be done passively, such as peak notch filtering, baffle step shelf or zobel, etc. This is the price you pay to afford the amps the iron grip on the speaker that you wouldn't get with all these filters in the way. The workaround is to start with quality drivers and optimize the response by adjusting the bands frequency and output to 'average' the response so the deficiencies are not as noticeable. This is where tweaking becomes fine art and may take months to get it right....it did for me and I'm still tweaking it.

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 Post subject: Re: Fully active x- over
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:44 pm 
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So like someone else mentioned, all these x-overs seem to use XLR or balanced i/o. How do you connect a rca cable from your source to these? And how do you connect the x-over to a rca i/o amp. Do you simply use a XLR to RCA adapter?


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 Post subject: Re: Fully active x- over
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:35 pm 
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Beano wrote:
So like someone else mentioned, all these x-overs seem to use XLR or balanced i/o. How do you connect a rca cable from your source to these? And how do you connect the x-over to a rca i/o amp. Do you simply use a XLR to RCA adapter?


XLR pins 1 and 3 are tied together to shield, XLR pin 2 to RCA center conductor.


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 Post subject: Re: Fully active x- over
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:07 pm 
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Location: Quebec, QC, CA
The digital harshness of the dbx driverack 260 is gone with cardas power cord !

I tried Behringer and driverack PA too.

behringer is very bad sounding compare to the dr260...

the dr PA is fon but the 260 is better in sound quality


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 Post subject: Re: Fully active x- over
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:26 pm 
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Location: Victoria, BC, CA
https://www.minidsp.com/products/minids ... sp-4x10-hd

This is an amazing one that is worth taking a look at.

It has analog and digital inputs, balanced and unbalanced outputs, with every tweaking option you can think of!


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 Post subject: Re: Fully active x- over
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:48 pm 
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I would start with good drivers like JBL and look at their specs...that will help you to determine the crossover points....it is all available online. You need some kind of enclosure for the bass driver(s)..again very easy to get from PRO field and yo can just place the mid-horn and the tweeters on top of that....all wired directly from the amplifiers and you are listening to music....look at the Japan websites...these people do this for many years now...


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 Post subject: Re: Fully active x- over
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:31 am 
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libor wrote:
I would start with good drivers like JBL and look at their specs...that will help you to determine the crossover points....it is all available online. You need some kind of enclosure for the bass driver(s)..again very easy to get from PRO field and yo can just place the mid-horn and the tweeters on top of that....all wired directly from the amplifiers and you are listening to music....look at the Japan websites...these people do this for many years now...

Again, that sounds like a reasonable approach to something like this. I may just keep my eyes open for a few drivers if they come up locally.

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 Post subject: Re: Fully active x- over
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:10 am 
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Philosophil wrote:
libor wrote:
I would start with good drivers like JBL and look at their specs...that will help you to determine the crossover points....it is all available online. You need some kind of enclosure for the bass driver(s)..again very easy to get from PRO field and yo can just place the mid-horn and the tweeters on top of that....all wired directly from the amplifiers and you are listening to music....look at the Japan websites...these people do this for many years now...

Again, that sounds like a reasonable approach to something like this. I may just keep my eyes open for a few drivers if they come up locally.


Phil, you have a PM.
B

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 Post subject: Re: Fully active x- over
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:37 am 
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Philosophil wrote:
libor wrote:
I would start with good drivers like JBL and look at their specs...that will help you to determine the crossover points....it is all available online. You need some kind of enclosure for the bass driver(s)..again very easy to get from PRO field and yo can just place the mid-horn and the tweeters on top of that....all wired directly from the amplifiers and you are listening to music....look at the Japan websites...these people do this for many years now...

Again, that sounds like a reasonable approach to something like this. I may just keep my eyes open for a few drivers if they come up locally.

The really exciting work is ongoing in the consumer product sector where DSP filtering and "correction" is being used to force small drivers in small enclosures
to produce sound that most traditional passive speaker designers would say is not possible!

The expertise needed is in DSP engineering and also psycho-acoustics (human perception).

I'm hopeful that this will "trickle up" to at least mid price CAM systems in the near future.

For me, the ideal would be a mid-size floor standing speaker enclosure with isolated or wireless digital source connections, internal active amplification matched to each driver
plus overall DSP control to let me tailor and modify the "sound quality" in any way that I want, in just a few moments. 8)

This would be so much more convenient than swapping amps, power cords, interconnects and speaker wire :D

It does appear to me that many CAMers would disagree :)


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 Post subject: Re: Fully active x- over
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:59 am 
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jst_canuck wrote:
Philosophil wrote:
libor wrote:
I would start with good drivers like JBL and look at their specs...that will help you to determine the crossover points....it is all available online. You need some kind of enclosure for the bass driver(s)..again very easy to get from PRO field and yo can just place the mid-horn and the tweeters on top of that....all wired directly from the amplifiers and you are listening to music....look at the Japan websites...these people do this for many years now...

Again, that sounds like a reasonable approach to something like this. I may just keep my eyes open for a few drivers if they come up locally.

The really exciting work is ongoing in the consumer product sector where DSP filtering and "correction" is being used to force small drivers in small enclosures
to produce sound that most traditional passive speaker designers would say is not possible!

The expertise needed is in DSP engineering and also psycho-acoustics (human perception).

I'm hopeful that this will "trickle up" to at least mid price CAM systems in the near future.

For me, the ideal would be a mid-size floor standing speaker enclosure with isolated or wireless digital source connections, internal active amplification matched to each driver
plus overall DSP control to let me tailor and modify the "sound quality" in any way that I want, in just a few moments. 8)

This would be so much more convenient than swapping amps, power cords, interconnects and speaker wire :D

It does appear to me that many CAMers would disagree :)


Linn Exakt technology ?

http://www.linn.co.uk/music-systems/tec ... -vs-exakt/


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 Post subject: Re: Fully active x- over
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:28 am 
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jst_canuck wrote:
....
For me, the ideal would be a mid-size floor standing speaker enclosure with isolated or wireless digital source connections, internal active amplification matched to each driver
plus overall DSP control to let me tailor and modify the "sound quality" in any way that I want, in just a few moments. 8)

This would be so much more convenient than swapping amps, power cords, interconnects and speaker wire :D

It does appear to me that many CAMers would disagree :)


I don't necessarily disagree, but it's always the implementation of the DSP (and likely more specifically the AD/DA conversion) that is the biggest issue right now. Maybe there was some sort of gain issue or some other factor in my use of the MiniDSP (4x10) unit, but it just added a veil to the music that I couldn't stand, and my guess is that there was something going on in the AD/DA chain...
That being said, you should check out the Avant Garde Zero 1 speakers - they basically do what you are talking about, minus the personalized control over the DSP...and they sounded, to my ears anyway, pretty damn decent at the Montreal show...expensive, of course, but nice :)
Byron

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 Post subject: Re: Fully active x- over
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:41 am 
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airdronian wrote:
jst_canuck wrote:
Philosophil wrote:
Again, that sounds like a reasonable approach to something like this. I may just keep my eyes open for a few drivers if they come up locally.

The really exciting work is ongoing in the consumer product sector where DSP filtering and "correction" is being used to force small drivers in small enclosures
to produce sound that most traditional passive speaker designers would say is not possible!

The expertise needed is in DSP engineering and also psycho-acoustics (human perception).

I'm hopeful that this will "trickle up" to at least mid price CAM systems in the near future.

For me, the ideal would be a mid-size floor standing speaker enclosure with isolated or wireless digital source connections, internal active amplification matched to each driver
plus overall DSP control to let me tailor and modify the "sound quality" in any way that I want, in just a few moments. 8)

This would be so much more convenient than swapping amps, power cords, interconnects and speaker wire :D

It does appear to me that many CAMers would disagree :)


Linn Exakt technology ?

http://www.linn.co.uk/music-systems/tec ... -vs-exakt/

Yes.... and No :lol:

Same technology but with the cost reduction mindset that the high volume consumer market demands to "trickle up" for more performance.

I see a future with much more reasonably priced systems but not sure who will provide these products?

Is a joint venture (JBL + Google, PSB + Apple ) any less likely than a big player in consumer products like SONY?

So much potential for great sound, convenience and flexibility:idea:


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 Post subject: Re: Fully active x- over
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:46 pm 
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mantisory wrote:
jst_canuck wrote:
....
For me, the ideal would be a mid-size floor standing speaker enclosure with isolated or wireless digital source connections, internal active amplification matched to each driver
plus overall DSP control to let me tailor and modify the "sound quality" in any way that I want, in just a few moments. 8)

This would be so much more convenient than swapping amps, power cords, interconnects and speaker wire :D

It does appear to me that many CAMers would disagree :)


I don't necessarily disagree, but it's always the implementation of the DSP (and likely more specifically the AD/DA conversion) that is the biggest issue right now. Maybe there was some sort of gain issue or some other factor in my use of the MiniDSP (4x10) unit, but it just added a veil to the music that I couldn't stand, and my guess is that there was something going on in the AD/DA chain...
That being said, you should check out the Avant Garde Zero 1 speakers - they basically do what you are talking about, minus the personalized control over the DSP...and they sounded, to my ears anyway, pretty damn decent at the Montreal show...expensive, of course, but nice :)
Byron

Certainly easier for all concerned if the signal path is ALL digital to avoid such A/D conversion problems :idea:

Even the power amp section(s) that push and pull each speaker driver may operate without dedicated D/A by operating in Class D.

The near future is expected to see DSP components continue to drop in cost and yet offer more performance.
There could also be several DSPs operating in a system that are transparent to the user too.

Top it all off with a cool graphical interface with lot's of canned "default" settings to let us all learn how to modify such systems to obtain the particular sound we want (at that moment) 8)

Could be a tough one for the boutique and the old school companies to take part :(


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 Post subject: Re: Fully active x- over
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:33 pm 
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jst_canuck wrote:

The near future is expected to see DSP components continue to drop in cost and yet offer more performance.
There could also be several DSPs operating in a system that are transparent to the user too.

Top it all off with a cool graphical interface with lot's of canned "default" settings to let us all learn how to modify such systems to obtain the particular sound we want (at that moment) 8)

Could be a tough one for the boutique and the old school companies to take part :(


Now imagine where we would be if active had remained the standard from the golden era on. Our hobby in the areas of room integrated systems would be the norm and true hi-end companies would have led the charge.

Marc mc


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 Post subject: Re: Fully active x- over
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:58 pm 
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Maybe it's time for the active/dsp system fans to admit..... Linn ROCKS ! :lol:


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This advanced approach to speaker modelling means Space Optimisation+ can apply a far greater level of precision when optimising the sound, personalised for your particular speakers.


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We’ve measured the characteristics of hundreds of speakers so you can get the most from Space Optimisation, whatever speakers you own.
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