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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:24 pm 
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Location: Kanata, ON, CA
That's the way it's now hooked up. I've also put the Maggie tweeters on the outside. I'll try to take a new reading set tomorrow and report back. But, back to my original question. What do I do if I find significant boosts or suckouts? How do I determine what specially is causing them? Or, more important, how do I determine what I need to do to reduce them?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 5:20 pm 
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room treatment or speaker positioning,
because I am sure if you see the graphic of your maggies in a anechonic chamber it probably don t have that peak, so that would mean,> without the room effect on your speaker they should resemble that graph, so if they don t have that peak it would mean it is room related, or placement. as for the dip it might also coincide with the maggies x over point.if yes that could be hard to fix unless using eq.

-- 11 Mar 2016 01:27 --

Bob0398 wrote:
That's the way it's now hooked up. I've also put the Maggie tweeters on the outside. I'll try to take a new reading set tomorrow and report back. But, back to my original question. What do I do if I find significant boosts or suckouts? How do I determine what specially is causing them? Or, more important, how do I determine what I need to do to reduce them?

the tweeter on the outside will improve soundstage and imaging,all mirror image speaker I know are built like this , tweeter on the outside. and for towed in or out, I always start almost no angle , then I towe them just a bit at a time until you feel and hear the dead center between the 2 speaker sound like there is a center channel speaker, ounce that is achieve imaging effect,should be at maximum .


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 5:29 pm 
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So, let's start with room treatment. How do i determine what and/or where needs treating? And, if you can tell me that, what does it need treating with? I presume a tounge lashing will not work.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:35 pm 
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that I cannot help because I never treated a room , perhaps start a new tread asking best way to treat your room peak
I know they all say, we all need for base trap?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:22 pm 
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Bob, re-measure your response now that you've made changes to the XO and to the speaker orientation. There will likely be dips and peaks still evident, but that's not a cause for a concern.

As zon has stated, the Mags likely measure reasonably flat in an anechoic setting, so any deviation from standard is most effected by your room and placement. But since dipoles don't have the severe standing wave generating problems as monopoles do, then most of your issue (of the response of the Mags) can be related to the placement. Find the placement and listening position that give the flattest response and treat the room.

(Oh, but wait, the subs are monopole, so that changes things a bit.)

Some would suggest room correction software and they swear by it. Essentially a program that can read the room response and correct the frequency and phase anomalies and spit out an algorithm that reverses the problem and sends the signal further down the chain. I have very limited experience with this function so I'm not the best to comment further on it's use. One caveat with EQ is that it works only for the spot where the measurements are taken, but since your space appears to be dedicated with a single listening spot this shouldn't be a problem.

There are a few dealers on CAM that advertise products in the Room Treatments section of the classifieds. Generally speaking, the thicker the absorbing material, the better the effect at lower frequencies. Read the info the GIK Acosutics and/or Real Traps websites.

The best bang for buck comes from making the absorbers yourself. But if you're not keen on this, then seek the products for the classified section.

Start in the corners weight the traps. I didn't like the sound of absorption at primary reflection points with the Mags, much preferred the sound of the reflective surface. If you find the tweeter out to be a bit hard sounding, then maybe a diffusive effect on the side walls could be desirable for you.

As you can see from the photos of my space I have hard surfaces all around, what you may not see is that the listening space is typically big, about 35x25x11. It's got an annoying echo that I've dealt with by drawing the sheers while listening, and by placing absorber panels up high on the walls near the ceiling (you can see one in the first photos). These made the sound less bright and more focused.

You've got some reading to do, but don't let that ruin your enjoyment of the music.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:57 am 
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Part II: OK, I moved the Maggies to have tweeters on outside with very slightly less tow in with speaker cable coming from the amps; the subs fed by generic rca cable from preamp, volume reduced slightly, output reduced to >50hz and directed parallel to side walls.

New plot in black, old in gold.

What should I take away from this?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:45 pm 
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you can see by just moving the tweeter on the outside less tow in, if you have same location, you can see quite a difference, so I would continue moving the maggies, did you try to move them apart about 1 feet each.
it is quite a difference where the dip was, and for that peak, I am sure that is the room mode if you want to know
60 feet is 30 hz so 30 feet would be 60 hz you peak is at around 64 hz wich would come to about 28 feet, is one of your wall distance at 28 feet apart, probably the depth. if yes to that question,that is the wall that give you that resonance.
I would move the maggies until that peak smoothed out. maybe put big drape or a thick blanket to on one of those wall to see how it react.

-- 12 Mar 2016 01:54 --

I see your room is 33 feet deep, but your maggies are about 5 feet from back wall, that would make it 28 feet from the maggies to the wall behind your listening position, just for fun, move your maggies back about a foot and a half to see if peak move to around 55 hz,insted of the 65 hz peak


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 6:24 pm 
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Zon, what do you think about that serious dip centred around the 1600hz mark? I can't help but think there is a polarity issue between the mid panel and the tweeter which would be a tedious fix. Bob, other than the bass integration issues you're having, how does is the imaging and tonal sound to you?

I agree with Zon in that continued experimentation of speaker placement is needed. If you have the speakers in the same location now, but the tweeters are on the outside, try pulling them together just a bit. The subs are booming now, perhaps get them away from the walls.

Also, it may be just the angle of the lens on the room, but are the speakers equidistant from the side walls? It appears the left speaker is closer to the left wall than the right speaker to the right wall.

I think your connection/connectivity issues are over and it's now time to tune the room.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:01 pm 
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Tomorrow, I'll try to put speakers closer to front wall. I presume i dont want the subs closer to the listening position than he mags. Is that correct? What might the effect of toeing the subs out slightly be?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 8:05 pm 
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I am not to worried about dips, but big peaks are problem, the gold graph look like the high where flatter. the other way around,but I would still keep the tweeters outside, and keep moving them apart bringing the 2 maggies closer, I would not go that way , because it would make the sound of both speaker mixe too much before getting to your hears, I usually use the same distance between both main speaker about the same distance as the listening position, so the listening position, look like about 18 feet, and maggies about 9 feet apart, if the sound of the maggies mixe together before getting to your hears , stereo image will suffer. I like to point the speakers about one feet each side of your hears from dead center to keep a nice stereo image, the picture show that they are quite towe in I would tow them out . I would move them 1 feet or 1.5 feet towed only about 10 degree, sub inside like I said , but actually the sub can place anywhere, they don t have to be just beside the maggies.
I would actually take them out of the way , move the maggies alone and measure alone . until you get best placement for imaging and flattnes, and then start using sub, you could also ounce the maggies prime location settled, I would then measure, the sub alone also until getting good blend and response, because right now if all measurement done with both , we don t know what is causing what. in the bass region.
also where do you take your measurement, sometime measuring just a few feet elsewhere and you might get big difference. so maybe not sitting in the sweat spot yet.

-- 12 Mar 2016 04:08 --

Bob0398 wrote:
Tomorrow, I'll try to put speakers closer to front wall. I presume i dont want the subs closer to the listening position than he mags. Is that correct? What might the effect of toeing the subs out slightly be?

don t put the maggies any closer, will not help. and sub can be closer or further, just not close to the wall.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 8:12 pm 
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I'm surprised that no one has commented about the glaring elephant in the room acoustics: that big patio door right behind only one of the speakers. BTW, toeing in the subs will have absolutely no effect on their sound as bass reproduction as bass is essentially omnidirectional.

One cheap, effective and easily reversible temporary acoustic measure that can be applied as bass trapping is to stack some big, fluffy pillows vertically (or big cylindrical cushions) in the 2 corners of the room behind the speakers to see if corner bass traps would be of any benefit. Second thing, which presents a bigger challenge, would be to move the entire equipment rack off to a side wall or moving the entire listening position 90 degrees including both the speakers and listening chair to even out the acoustic space. This is what I had to resort to with MMGs. Another, more radical option, would be to have the whole setup kitty-katted; at a 45 degree angle, symmetrical to the left corner.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 8:15 pm 
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speaker usually as you move off axis they tend to drop high frequencys, 15 degree can drop frequencys over 10k by 6 D/b
so again towing them out should drop 10 k and up , right now they are straight pointing toward listening position.

-- 12 Mar 2016 04:17 --

OBI56 wrote:
I'm surprised that no one has commented about the glaring elephant in the room acoustics: that big patio door right behind only one of the speakers. BTW, toeing in the subs will have absolutely no effect on their sound as bass reproduction as bass is essentially omnidirectional.

One cheap, effective and easily reversible temporary acoustic measure that can be applied as bass trapping is to stack some big, fluffy pillows vertically (or big cylindrical cushions) in the 2 corners of the room behind the speakers to see if corner bass traps would be of any benefit.

yes that is quite reflective.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 12:04 pm 
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OBI56 wrote:
I'm surprised that no one has commented about the glaring elephant in the room acoustics: that big patio door right behind only one of the speakers. BTW, toeing in the subs will have absolutely no effect on their sound as bass reproduction as bass is essentially omnidirectional.

One cheap, effective and easily reversible temporary acoustic measure that can be applied as bass trapping is to stack some big, fluffy pillows vertically (or big cylindrical cushions) in the 2 corners of the room behind the speakers to see if corner bass traps would be of any benefit. Second thing, which presents a bigger challenge, would be to move the entire equipment rack off to a side wall or moving the entire listening position 90 degrees including both the speakers and listening chair to even out the acoustic space. This is what I had to resort to with MMGs. Another, more radical option, would be to have the whole setup kitty-katted; at a 45 degree angle, symmetrical to the left corner.
The bass from a dipole is a figure 8 with the lobes on axis. For this reason I always preferred listening to panels directly on axis for maximum bass impact, and adjusted the width for good separation and stage. This is not taking into account the subs, but then I was never able to seamlessly mix the two, though it sure wasn't for lack of trying. The blend can be made perfect for a few recordings, but the rest will stand out as odd sounding mix-mash of lumpy bass, or no bass at all.

You make a good point about the patio door, OBI. In behind the panels should be light room treatment, IMO. I have jute blinds hanging on the walls now, but in the past I've had wall to wall, floor to ceiling cotton draperies overlaid with fabric vertical venetians, also wall to wall and floor to ceiling. Soft enough to tame the midrange reflections without overdamping them, and light enough to let the bass back wave fold back in phase to augment the front. Heavy treatments in the back will kill the life and the stage, IMO.

Other good points are the importance of room and furniture symmetry, and to remove the clutter in behind the speakers. With sound radiating in all directions, anything out of place will affect the stage. Maggies need room to breathe! 8)

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:29 pm 
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ripblade wrote:
Heavy treatments in the back will kill the life and the stage, IMO.

^ This was my experience with panel absorbers on the wall behind the speakers. To me, it sounds much better with a bare wall.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 7:42 am 
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New plot. Moved mags 77" from front wall and 38" from sides. Slightly less toein (maybe 10° fron parallel but I'm guessing). Subs moved correlatively closer to front and sides a few degrees off parallel toward corners.

Gold curve is with the blinds down over patio door black is without blinds.

What do you think?


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