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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:33 am 
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the mag don t have lot s of deep bass, so leaving your front to full range should boost the bass resaponse a bit, like said your graph don t seem to show much response under 50 hz, did you try to shift polarity of the sub, try it at 180 degree to see the difference, usually it is preferable to have as much distance or more , between the 2 main speaker, and listening position, for better channel separation, and imaging, second your maggies are dipole , so sometime in a big room like this using the sidewall could help response, a friend of mine add some m1 mirage set up the same way as you are set up, and it was bad no imaging it was like the presence was centered I n the middle of room and not filling the room, because back wall was very far like you and the m1 need wall s to reflecte the sound from the back of the speaker as soon as I move them about 3 fetr from the wall about 12 feet apart, everything come to it place , he was filling the room with a big presence, and you could move into the room with out loosing that presence, second your sub if move more toward center would sound flatter,less boomy. your graph show a big dip under 50 hz. your xover is set at 50 hz??? either it is out of phase or not loud enough to performe duty, what kind of xover used specialy for the maggies?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 5:40 am 
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Location: St.Catharines, ON, CA
Bob,

Bob Katz of Digital Domain has a nice article on sub placement requiring
no test equipment.I find it helpful plus it makes sense .
Have a look.digido.com.

Gary


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:37 am 
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Bob0398 wrote:
The curve that starts more to the left plots the sound with both subs and maggies operating. The one that starts two frequency intervals to the right is of the Maggies alone. This afternoon I will try to get a better picture of the graph.

If this is the case, then the plot shows you have useable response from the Maggies alone to 50hz. When you add the subs with the 75hz XO then the response becomes worse, in my opinion. Run the speakers full range and use the subs to fill in the frequencies below that 50Hz slope. Use the speaker level connection as described in the owner's manual.

From there, it's a function of getting the phase correct.

You also have significant level reduction in the tweeter range. Do you have a resistor loaded to attenuate its output?

Still, consider EQ and/or bass traps to help smooth the response of the bass frequencies, and (this part will be tough) try to re-establish a better placement for the subs.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:05 am 
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You have been a lot of help. I really appreciate the time you are taking with me. Its great of you. I was using the high level input to the subs and high level out to the mags.

I have now set the subs' xo to 50hz and their switches to bypass. Get way more bass on a Rebecca Pigeon recording. So as I understand it, the subs are producing signals up to 50 hertz and the Mags are running fully on.

I used to use a treble attenuator on the Mags but not any more. I am listening to them with the tweeters on the inside where, it is said, I think, that the speakers produce more treble. I'm going to look at the manual again to confirm that.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:58 am 
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Bob0398 wrote:
You have been a lot of help. I really appreciate the time you are taking with me. Its great of you. I was using the high level input to the subs and high level out to the mags.

I have now set the subs' xo to 50hz and their switches to bypass. Get way more bass on a Rebecca Pigeon recording. So as I understand it, the subs are producing signals up to 50 hertz and the Mags are running fully on.

I used to use a treble attenuator on the Mags but not any more. I am listening to them with the tweeters on the inside where, it is said, I think, that the speakers produce more treble. I'm going to look at the manual again to confirm that.

The subs are still giving output above 50hz, just how much depends on the slope of the filter. If the Mags are connected directly to the power amps then they will be running full-range, yes. Depending on the circuitry within the subs, if the signal passes through the subs on the way to the speakers then the Mags may or may not be full-range.

Try running the speaker level connection from your main power amp to the sub of it's not the way you have it connected now. This will give you the benefits as outlined in the Vandersteen 2WQ article and ensure the Mags are full.

Keep working. Bass management and integration is a tedious process, and it's made harder than it already is when Magnepans are the mains. The reward, though, of the correct result at the end of the process is difficult to put into words. It just needs to be heard again and again.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:15 am 
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As to the tweeters in or out, I haven't measured a difference between the placements, but the imaging differences are definitely noticeable. To my ears, the tweeters in produces a very solid centre image but the overall stage condenses to a point of losing the hologram effect. With the tweeters out, the images are bigger, the stage is wider and deeper; I can just hear more music.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:22 am 
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I run one set of cables from one mono amp to high level in on the sub. A second set of cables from the sub high level out to the mags. Is that what you are suggesting?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:34 am 
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Not quite.

Connect the Maggies to output terminal of your amps as normal, but also run a wire from the output terminal of the amp to the high level input of the sub. It's in the manual of the subs under the "high level input/output" section on page 10.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:55 am 
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If I'm going to do it that way, is there a down side to using a line in port with an rca connection from my pre? My second set of speaker cables might not be long enough to reach from my amps to the subs.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:41 pm 
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You wouldn't connect the subs to the preamp with high-level connection. The signal is generated from the voltage the power amp.

You don't need special wire to make this connection work for now. Any conductor, thick or thin, will work. The only thing that matters is its long enough to connect the power amp output terminal to the input of the sub.

If you're asking to connect the subs via a second set of line-level outputs from the preamp, then yes, you can do this also.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:47 pm 
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I think I understand that. But, just for greater certainty, I wanted to know the sonic consequences of hooking the mags to the amp with speaker cables but hooking the subs to the pre out and, on the subs, line in with an RCA cable?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:58 pm 
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That's done all the time...

Try any of all of the wiring configurations, you might find one does the trick for you more than others.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:05 pm 
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Are you a Mancunian?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:56 pm 
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Only in my head and my heart.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:18 pm 
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if you have 2 output from your pre amp you can hook one sub each side using rca wire, if not you can use a spliter (y) to get 2 output tap for each side, it is preferable to using speaker line input,
speaker line input is the last resort option, for when you don t have a pre amp output, because you send a let say 100 watt to feed a 1 volt input ? that mean the power sent via speaker output is way to loud to feed an amplifier input (sub amp) so it drop from let say 100 watt to about 2 watt to drive sub amplifier input wich is 1 volt.
so if using rca input, no power transfer needed, that is the way it should be used if that option offered. and in your case you do have pre amp output.


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