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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:16 pm 
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Location: Calgary, AB, CA
revoxb77 wrote:
The main mistake is: ventillation.
I have a round 6 in. fresh air output from heat exchanger that comminucates with both rooms, damm.......
So much efforts for that stupid mistake.....
Anyway i'm not a monitoring studio, i lowerred my SPL , that's all.
I could trim the 6 in. conduit with foam, but i prefer to keep the heat exchanger fonction.

Have you looked into the effectiveness of applying foam around the inside but still leaving say, 4" of air flow space? Or are you sayin that you'd prefer to keep the entire 6" capacity?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:24 pm 
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Location: Niagara on the lake, ON, CA
Just did mine as well put safe and sound every where like obi said it really works, not just in the ceiling but all walls and areas you can put it! I used a ton of it and really works I don't think you need special drywall might be over kill
Ps I got my drywall with these guys (100 sheets) they hand bomb down


http://www.bernardibuildingsupply.com/home.htm


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:31 am 
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Location: Ottawa, ON, CA
revoxb77 wrote:
Hi, i did all of the soundproofing using Roxul bethween the joist, sonopan, then gryprock sheet.
Mainly my hifi room is just below my wife TV room, like you.
The main mistake is: ventillation.
I have a round 6 in. fresh air output from heat exchanger that comminucates with both rooms, damm.......


Good points

Roxul (spun mineral glass) is fantasic stuff

Concerning room ventalation, its critical to have air circulation in a room to control humidity and mold.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:37 am 
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Location: burlington, ON, CA
Huck, if you want to play louder SPL that means pressurizing the room. Once you pressurize the room the sound starts to look for places to escape and the sound waves start to vibrate everything. The vibrations cause other vibrations called sympathetic vibrations. This is on going until the vibrations die away or end up as dissapated heat. You have to concentrate first on the transmission of vibrations through solid connections, that is to say you must stop the direct connections through mechanical means. The floor joist has to be decoupled from the finished sound room ceiling. Resiliant z shaped channel is cheap. You can run isolation clips or pads or mounts see
http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/isol ... 5wodmlcMNw

There are also rubber matt like materials you can use for the floor above instead. Dont forget to use some sort of caulking at each floor/wall or wall/ceiling intersection. Realistically, you likely will not play too too loud or you will hurt your hearing. You likely will end up listening nearfield will huge speakers. If this happens then the bass will go throughout the house at low SPL. In order to control this it is almost impossible. What to do?
This is what you must concentrate on first-Lights should be surface mount. Receptacles and switch boxes should be surface mount. All Cold air return and hot air supply furnace plenum and pipe should be insulated around the inside of the pipe/plenum that run within the ceiling or wall cavity surrounding the room you listen in. All cold air return and supply penetrating the room should be capped off and run to beside the furnace with either a bellows type of insulated pipe hook-up or a separate dc multi-speed fan assembly run as a second zone. not too complicated. If you have money get a foam spray outfit in to spray the bottom of the joists about 1 1/2 to 3 inches worth using a high density foam from Japan. THEN insulate the heck out of it using the sound absorption insulation being carful to layer the batts and cut them with precision and overlap using more thin layers than one heavy layer. Do not compress the sound absorbsion batting.
Are you building a room or just working on the ceiling? If walls too treat same as ceiling and use either a double door system to enter/exit with door sealing using an exterior type door or two fire rated doors!! or get one fire rated metal door that you can hardly lift. A room that is this tight will need lots of room treatments to control the sound. Not sure its worth it. Spend money on upgrading your gear and when you want to blow your head off go to a concert/bar/band practice/a buddies home/last use headphones. Great sound comes from great speakers and great source. The bass is what is going to drive everyone in the house batty even at low spl Bass notes go everywhere and are really hard to control


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:59 pm 
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Location: Calgary, AB, CA
Excellent post Speedy... When you say to spray the joists with foam, I assume you mean the underside of the upper floor between the joists? The joists would have the Resiliant channel or isolation clips, and not the foam, correct?

Also to clarify the desired construction at the wall/ceiling intersection... Where the walls are put in front of a concrete underground wall (where isolation is not a concern on account of having no room on the other side of the concrete), what would you recommend at the intersection of the wall/celing to keep the sound from transmitting through the top framing board and into the upper floor?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:22 am 
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Location: burlington, ON, CA
A-The spray foam, depending on what type of foam you use and probably what make as they do not give all the same results act as an adhesive. The benefit to spraying just the underneath at bottom of floor joist material and at top of floor joist is that regardless the subfloor is shrunk and squeeking tounge and groove or dryed out and weakened plywood( the nails have no hold any longer) or composite board of some type, Thie foam holds everything in place and also strengthens the floor structure sort of like a truss. Most important is nothing vibrates more easily as the vibrations have a lot more energy to displace throughout the entire floor structure and so the vibration energy is more equally distributed and so more equally displaced or DE-energised or there needs more SPL to create more sympathetic vibrations. You must think like you are a vibration or think as if you are the material being vibrated and so if you were to sit in a pool of still water eventually as your body will only absorb so much vibration being a vibration sink (like a heat or cold sink) sort of like the sound absorbtion batting then once full and no longer to absorb more the vibrations must find a new home and eventually the still pool of water will start to move. The more vibrations that must find a new place to dissapate into or be absorbed by until that next material hits maximumum energy absorption THE MORE vibrations will travel elsewhere looking for a new place to vibrate actually a new place to dump excess energy into. It is all how energy moves and sound waves are energy. They are looking to dissapate. The result is usually heat through molecules moving. You don’t need to fill the cavity with foam. About 6 inches down from subfloor to 1 ½ or more inches at underside of subfloor should net you around 4 to 6 inch build up at the top of joist bottom of subfloor intersection.
B-You must understand how UNPRESSURIZED currents of air move and also how sound PRESSURE moves. Cold air Hot air move like a magnet where one is attracted to the other. The hot is always attracted to the cold because as part of convection and conduction the hot passes to the cold. The kettle is on the stove the cold is absorbed by the hot element.
So it is moisture carrying warm air that moves in the summer into your home and in the winter more so out of your home. This conduit of warm moist air hits something colder and the moisture is deposited. The moisture then turns to a bacteria and starts to eat everything in sight. This can happen on a small scale you do not notice or on a large scale you absolutely cannot disregard. Examples. I have taken lots of homes apart since I was young (family construction business) an always noticed how the bottom of the wall studs were rotten or getting rotten. We are talking about years ago where Jack Pine was prevalent in building construction for house framing purposes. You cut Jack pine and it smells like turpentine. Jack Pine is a natural decay preventing wood and that was dense cellular structure. A dry 2x4 taken out of a wall for recycling or reuse was HEAVY in weight. Todays farm trees are designed to grow fast and the cellular structure of these 2x4’s are very “not dense” at all. Easy for mould and decay to form. Stop the movement of air within the rear wall from the bottom at the concrete floor all the way up to the top of the subfloor at the ceiling. How to do this when even the Government is screwed up about condensation Prevention? If your wall is not stone which can weep and wick and hydrostatically leak but straight and flat, then I would paint or roll on the inside of the wall first a smelly stick material called foundation coating. Then on top of that once dry I would apply SM type or high density styroafoam insulation not butt joint but a ship lap joint at each intersection. Except the floor and top of subfloor is the only place a ship lap joint is not required and at every joint apply a caulking that will not fall apart but stick to both wood and styrofoam and concrete and plastic/vinyl or neoprene. A one part urethane caulking at the least like Tremco http://www.tremcosealants.com/industria ... gories.asp
http://www.eaglesealants.com/eagleseala ... ofing.page
You can also buy neoprene in sheets and cut that up to lay under the bottom wall stud at the concrete floor. One can also use a material like roofing membrane or a heavy vinyl like they use in a shower pan. All these materials can be used also for the wall instead of the foundation coating tar. Some say do not use a non breathable material above grade. I say vapour proof all the way up to the bottom of the subfloor/ceiling.
Typically homes have more static pressure inside their home so when you open the door to outside there is less pressure outside and the inside air moves out. Bood pressure is like static pressure in a home.
If you want to stop moisture/air infiltration and exfiltration then you have to use a material like the Tremco or you can use an acoustic sealant . Mulco, Tremco, CSL, there are many companies. A latex caulk will break down I think. Silicone is not all the same. The best silicones were made by Dow Corning YEARS ago. Today there is a lot of junk on the market. The best silicon will be one that is designed for underwater use. The next best silicone is the one designed or partial underwater or often wet use. Then there are all the rest. I like using 3M 5200 slow cure for specialized roofing use. The fast cure is not as good but next in line for the crown. For all purpose adhesive I like using Lepage PL polyurethane adhesive but it is not easy to work with and use rubber gloves as it will turn your hands cant get off black. For acoustic use LePage Acousti-seal vapour barrier and sound reduction adhesive.
Urethane adhesives/sealants/caulking today are all good just make sure you get a fresh tube always or it is a **** to get to flow. Silicones today are not so good they don’t stick too long and mould can grow in them -the quality is not there. It is price driven. Do not think just because it is silicone its good. There is a best product for a specific purpose. There is no do all product. At the concrete floor use a caulking adhering the neoprene or whatever material you will place the wall assembly onto and you will caulk the top of this gasket then place the bottom of the wall on that. The wall can be very tight against the Styrofoam then fill nicely with insulation batts cut expertly. Use a serrated edge long bread type knife sharpen knife often with a sharpening stone or fine file
C-To answer the question what would I do where the top of the wall joist assembly meets the whatever? There are a few ways to do this. One the exterior wall must be done as I recommend at the very least an unbroken wall of insulation with no break in it. I DO NOT LIKE USING A PLASTIC VAPOUR BARRIER SHEET as advised by everyone else. I have seen too many plastic sheets disintegrate into nothing as they get old. I have taken a lot of bulding’s apart. You learn more from dismantling than from assembling. If I was in a desert I would not die from thirst if I had a plastic sheet to lay on the ground to collect water from. Plastic CREATES condensation. I do not like it. So you have a wall of Styrofoam against the exterior walls, the bottom of the Styrofoam can be caulked but it is better to really fit it nicely and fit it tightly. Every shiplap joint is caulked for sure and the top where each floor joist is cut out in a slot very precisely is also either cailed or a can of high density foam is used sparingly- sparingly around the floor joist Styrofoam . The foam expands and is hard to cut clean Use plastic gloves.
D.1--The ceiling. The subfloor/floor joist is sprayed. The two of more layers of insulation are cut precisely and fitted not compressed. A neoprene or gasket can be used at the bottom of the floor joist and the Z channel can be screwed on. Drywall screws are cheap and the can very easily break I would not use drywall screw for this. The channel can be run right across to the Styrofoam/exterior wall I would leave a bit of space from Styrofoam to end of Z channel. Walls can be run up to the bottom of Z channel. Run Z channel so walls can be screwed to bottom of all Z channel where ever the walls are. Think you want to build a room with in a room . Masterfonics in Nashville was built using a room within a room concept.
D.2- Run walls up to bottom of joist that is where there will be a lot of complications and requirement for gaskets and pads etc.
I write building inspection reports all the time. I am also a Realtor. I mix the two so long as there is no conflict of interest. Sound rooms, mastering rooms and recording studios are great interesting hobbies for me. I did not proof this as I typed it as fast as I could. Bye for now.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:34 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:02 pm
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Location: Calgary, AB, CA
Wow, lots to digest... Right now I think the room is simply framed with 2x4's right against the concrete. To implement your recommendations I'll have to rebuild the walls both to do the sealing and styrofoam against the concrete, as well as and to run the z channel out past the joists in order to attach the wall to the z-channel. Doing the z-channel on the ceiling first was the piece that I wasn't understanding, on account of the walls being already framed and the ceiling/joists currently unfinished/untouched...

Hmmm... Thanks a lot for the advice, it is VERY much appreciated; though maybe ignorance was bliss. :) lol The room is below-grade concrete on 3 of the 4 sides (the rear wall is the one that isnt), so doing a complete rebuild on them is no small feat... :)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:05 pm 
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Location: burlington, ON, CA
Just insulate the hell out of where the cavity is above your top wall plate/bottom of subfloor then when you run the Z channell at the z channel bottom of floor joist contact put a piece of neoprene or rubber or something to stop the direct contact


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:35 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:07 am
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Location: mississauga, ON, CA
I never throw out left over drywall, I repurpose it inbetween the studs as a sound barrier. Layered drywall works really well for preventing resonance and noise cancellation. If you can afford 8-12" for an airgap, use Drywal furring. Air space in between soundproof walls is a IEEE std spec for interrogation room design.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:18 am 
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Location: Georgetown, ON, CA
superwatt wrote:
I never throw out left over drywall, I repurpose it inbetween the studs as a sound barrier. Layered drywall works really well for preventing resonance and noise cancellation. If you can afford 8-12" for an airgap, use Drywal furring. Air space in between soundproof walls is a IEEE std spec for interrogation room design.


Hi superwatt,
Firstly, welcome to CAM!
Second, you commented on (resurrected) a thread that is almost 6 years old. :shock: BUT, thanks for doing so, as it was a good read!

Cheers!


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:45 am 
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Location: West of GTA Boonies, ON, CA
PJS17 wrote:
Huck wrote:
Hi;
Looking to soundproof my 12 foot x 24 foot rec-room ceilng. Gonna use Roxul Safe n Sound insulation, but what kind of drywall?. I was looking into Quietrock drywall sheets ,but not sure of any Canadian dealers( I contacted them). Anything else available in Canada ( Home Depot,etc?)Thanks,Keith


Hi Keith:
What I did was use steel resiliant channel strapped across the ceiling joists, then insulated with Roxul, then drywalled trying not to drill drywall screws into the wooden ceiling joists: in effect a "hanging" ceiling. Don't know about soundproofing, but it did help quite a bit. I used regular 1/2" drywall, not sure about the cost difference vs benefit?

PJ


+1

Nailed it .... Decoupling the drywall from the joists first is the largest component of sound transmission suppression, not the drywall material itself.


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