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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:04 am 
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Location: Victoria, BC, CA
Ken, I'd be very cautious about recommending industrial gas for medical purposes. Industrial gas can be contaminated with oil, while medical cannot. The difference can be asphyxiation.

So yes, maybe they are the same, from the same tank of the same truck, maybe even all the time and maybe even everywhere. But I wouldn't bet my life on it.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:09 am 
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eddiel wrote:
I might try that formula with my ClearAudio RCM. Triton on it's own works but it doesn't appear to be any better than my L'Art Du Son or AIVS.

Definitely report back on your findings


I mixed up my first batch of fluid and cleaned 12 records. The early results are fantastic: most (but not all) of the noise and clicks are gone, the soundstage has really opened up, the tone of piano and guitar notes sounds much more realistic. Dynamics seem to have been improved as well. Keep in mind these records were already very clean as I used a Squeaky Clean Vinyl RCM with multiple steps of MoFi Super Wash, Disc Doctor Miracle Wash, and then a quadruple rinse in distilled water.

I learned a couple of things in making this first batch:

1. My 10L ultrasonic tank only holds about 8L of fluid so my chemical concentrations are well off. Ruston uses 10ml of Triton in his 2 gallon mix, so that's still about right for my formula. However, my IPA and Heben concentrations are too high and I will probably reduce them the next time I make a batch.

2. I got a little foaming on my first batch, likely due to the chemical concentrations as mentioned above. After letting the tank sit overnight, I used a soup spoon to scoop out as much of the foam as I could. After reheating the tank to 35C the bubbles went away completely.

I used the Ultrasonic tank set at 35C and the timer set at 15 minutes. The VinylStack ULTRA Sonic Spin was set to 1 revolution every 3 minutes. I triple rinsed using the RCM and distilled water. After rack drying each record received a new MoFi sleeve.

I am really impressed with the early results of the US cleaner and the DIY wash fluid. I'll post an update if I learn anything else as I get more experience with it.

Todd

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:42 am 
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Location: toronto, ON, CA
I use 1 tsp black and white photo wetting agent to 4 litres of distilled water and distilled water for rinse with a Squeaky Clean. I get the wetting agent from Freestyle photo supply in the US.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:24 am 
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Location: Kingston, ON, CA
planarman wrote:
Ken, I'd be very cautious about recommending industrial gas for medical purposes. Industrial gas can be contaminated with oil, while medical cannot. The difference can be asphyxiation.

So yes, maybe they are the same, from the same tank of the same truck, maybe even all the time and maybe even everywhere. But I wouldn't bet my life on it.



That's a good thing to know as this sort of information on this scenario is rather thin on the ground. One of those things that are generally kept close to the commercial chest (secretive) as this involves money, ie what can be charged for one vs the other. A place where 5 cents or less (possibly even a zero cost change) can be converted into many more dollars. Since it involves the medical 'industry' the money flows from the deep pockets of the governmental medical systems.. to the oxygen suppliers...and is very likely to be unencumbered by any cost oversights. A free meal for all who are in the medical/industrial oxygen supply industry... where they try to keep things under cover and off the public radar... and on the paperwork. Granted, it is a tiny little corner of the overall scenarios, but one still wonders.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:23 am 
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Location: Toronto, ON, CA
toddc2 wrote:
eddiel wrote:
I might try that formula with my ClearAudio RCM. Triton on it's own works but it doesn't appear to be any better than my L'Art Du Son or AIVS.

Definitely report back on your findings


I mixed up my first batch of fluid and cleaned 12 records. The early results are fantastic: most (but not all) of the noise and clicks are gone, the soundstage has really opened up, the tone of piano and guitar notes sounds much more realistic. Dynamics seem to have been improved as well. Keep in mind these records were already very clean as I used a Squeaky Clean Vinyl RCM with multiple steps of MoFi Super Wash, Disc Doctor Miracle Wash, and then a quadruple rinse in distilled water.

I learned a couple of things in making this first batch:

1. My 10L ultrasonic tank only holds about 8L of fluid so my chemical concentrations are well off. Ruston uses 10ml of Triton in his 2 gallon mix, so that's still about right for my formula. However, my IPA and Heben concentrations are too high and I will probably reduce them the next time I make a batch.

2. I got a little foaming on my first batch, likely due to the chemical concentrations as mentioned above. After letting the tank sit overnight, I used a soup spoon to scoop out as much of the foam as I could. After reheating the tank to 35C the bubbles went away completely.

I used the Ultrasonic tank set at 35C and the timer set at 15 minutes. The VinylStack ULTRA Sonic Spin was set to 1 revolution every 3 minutes. I triple rinsed using the RCM and distilled water. After rack drying each record received a new MoFi sleeve.

I am really impressed with the early results of the US cleaner and the DIY wash fluid. I'll post an update if I learn anything else as I get more experience with it.

Todd


Thanks for the update Todd. I went for the VinylStack as well. It was the only company that made these mechanisms that would post to Canada. It was stuck in customs for about 10 days but I have it now as well as the ultrasonic tank. I plan on testing it tomorrow.

I have everything on the ingredient list except the Behentrimonium Chloride but I'm going to go ahead anyway.

Looks like your plan is similar to time. I was thinking about 15 minutes at 1 rev per 3 minutes. I wasn't sure on the temp though so I'll try 35C.

My first test will be to re-clean the records I've already put through my ClearAudio Smartmatrix RCM to see if there's any improvement on those.

I plan on doing a rinse cycle on my RCM as well. My place is quite dusty so I can't just leave them out to air dry for too long. I have small table fan that I might use while they air dry to see if that helps keep the dust off.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:02 pm 
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Location: Waterloo, ON, CA
Forgot to mention, CLEAN THE TANK before first use! I took a sterile pad with some IPA on it before use and the pad came out black. Not sure what that was but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be good on my record surfaces.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:35 pm 
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Location: Moncton, New Brunswick, NB, CA
I am no longer into vinyl.............but, when I was, triple distilled water in my mix worked best.

It is the same distilled water used in surgical suites to irrigate surgical incisions.

It's as squeaky clean as water can get....triple distilled, and demineralized.

If you know someone who works in a hospital operating room.......

Cheers, del Sol


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:01 pm 
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Ultra pure water is probably a good idea for rinsing, but its use in a wash mix that will ultimately be contaminated by the soils from the record is an unnecessary expense if it is one. Plain old distilled is plenty good enough for that, IMO.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:53 am 
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Location: Toronto, ON, CA
toddc2 wrote:
Forgot to mention, CLEAN THE TANK before first use! I took a sterile pad with some IPA on it before use and the pad came out black. Not sure what that was but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be good on my record surfaces.


Lol. Timely post. I was staring at the tank thinking, I had better clean first just in case :)

-- 20 Aug 2017 15:54 --

ripblade wrote:
Ultra pure water is probably a good idea for rinsing, but its use in a wash mix that will ultimately be contaminated by the soils from the record is an unnecessary expense if it is one. Plain old distilled is plenty good enough for that, IMO.


I tried finding some ultra pure water and couldn't find a source. I found places that had it, but none that would sell to a regular guy who just wanted to clean his records.

AIVS has some but it's expensive. In the end I just kept using regular distilled water.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:07 am 
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eddiel wrote:
I tried finding some ultra pure water and couldn't find a source. I found places that had it, but none that would sell to a regular guy who just wanted to clean his records.

AIVS has some but it's expensive. In the end I just kept using regular distilled water.

That's all I do too, but I don't air dry my records, which is where I think the biggest difference lies.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:49 am 
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Location: Newmarket, ON, CA
Ultrasonic cleaning is the way to go. Definitely makes a difference on records where you just can't get rid of those clicks and pops! The machines are very expensive ($4K) however I found a few DIY solutions on youtube at a more reasonable cost.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:30 pm 
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Location: Sturgeon Falls, ON, CA
Stone wrote:
"Home made"...80% distilled water 20% Isopropyl alcohol



+1.... stone is dead on !


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:05 pm 
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Location: Toronto, ON, CA
thirty3records wrote:
Ultrasonic cleaning is the way to go. Definitely makes a difference on records where you just can't get rid of those clicks and pops! The machines are very expensive ($4K) however I found a few DIY solutions on youtube at a more reasonable cost.


I bought a tank off of Amazon.ca. 6L $270 all in. I was going to build my own record holding/turning thing but decided to buy one already made and went with the vinyl stack. I got hit at the border with some HST but I got it all in for $700. You could easily do it for $500 or less if you want to build your own VinylStack like device. Probably even cheaper.

Today was my first day of cleaning. First thing I noticed was you get through way more records since I can do 3 at a time and while I'm drying those, I can do another three.

Second thing I noticed is no improvement on one record I had already cleaned using my SmartMatrix. Now it's just one and I did clean about 12 in total so far, all bar one, had already been cleaned on my SmartMatrix.

Early testing stage for me but I fear that my records are as clean as they will ever be and I'd probably get less crackle and pop if I just bought a cheaper t/t and stylus. :)

It'll take me a while to get through play grading all the ones I cleaned but I hope some improve.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:33 pm 
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eddiel wrote:
Second thing I noticed is no improvement on one record I had already cleaned using my SmartMatrix. Now it's just one and I did clean about 12 in total so far, all bar one, had already been cleaned on my SmartMatrix.

Early testing stage for me but I fear that my records are as clean as they will ever be and I'd probably get less crackle and pop if I just bought a cheaper t/t and stylus.

That was my experience as well. Assuming the cavitation bubbles are smaller than the bristles on the Smartmatrix, you might notice better definition in the top frequencies, but a lower noise floor on a record already cleaned is a bit of a stretch. You might find some improvement if you implement the fuzzy rollers that the Audio Desk uses, as some means to brush away the detritus loosened by the bubbles is helpful, IME. It could be that the stylus will do that for you on initial playback, especially if it's a microridge type with a teeny tiny scanning radius. If that's the case, you might not notice an improvement until subsequent plays.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:59 am 
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This is all interesting reading for someone who likes their old records in the best possible condition.

Recently I have been cleaning records one at a time, typically just before playing first time. My observation is that this might soften some foreign material in the grooves that the stylus then is removing to a significant extent. The solution is essentially acting as a solvent. I don't think the goat hairs on the VPI brush actually enter the grooves. Looking under magnification, I can sometimes see a filament building at the stylus as it moves through the groove.

I guess this is why people use enzyme solutions.

Also, using 20% isopropanol, apparently there is slight concern that such brief exposure can degrade/dissolve part of the vinyl. How great a likelihood with perhaps one wash and rinse ? Don't want to cause degradation.

Looking to source behentrimonium or similar quaternary and also try enzyme based.

if people here can share their experience with enzyme solutions that would be helpful.

Edit: Found behentrimonium sulphate on Amazon as a cosmetic additive sold in dry crystallized form. Just have to determine concentration/purity etc and if can add a small quantity to my next batch of cleaning solution soon. I have too many incomplete projects!

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