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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:57 am 
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Location: Golden Triangle, ON, CA
admin wrote:
Quadzilla, your opinion on the matter and the points raised are known to me and I take them into consideration when making these decisions. Thanks as usual for your comments.


And ,what about the requirement as was suggested to use paypal if not an in person sale for
the first so many sales. This will make more an insurance of getting back funds
from the sellers whom do not have the product to ship that this photo mandate alone
cannot . Or will this also be just the one way solution and not the compromise of the
image believers to do something for the whole and not just for themselves ?

This shouldn't be just about appeasing an overly vocal minority, or just stopping scammers it should also
be about some safety measures when scammers slip by. Being proactive to protect buyers on a sellers market
before it happens , is wiser than not . For those whom cry at the very mention of paypal, well
do as you always will and don't sell to those that wish to use it, the same as the first few transactions
of a new member would "have" to do so.
Another suggestion , since the vast majority of these scammers are so easily sniffed out through
thier total ignorance , and since information is power. Perhaps members should cease from
posting threads with information that to a thief is a learning textbook of how to be avoided
the next time. Just a thought....................................................................................................


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:59 am 
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Location: ottawa, ON, CA
god save the queen


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:29 am 
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Quadzilla wrote:
I don't see how it could be an 'impediment', when these same individuals seemingly have the wherewithal to operate complex audio gear, navigate the Internet, and manage online payment options. It seems like more of a political statement by flat-earth luddites than an 'impediment'. I honestly can't think of ONE REASON why an ad would be more effective without photos ... or why a potential buyer would not want to see photos of the gear they are thinking of buying.


I assume that there is a small minority of CAM users who do not own a digital camera or a decent smartphone. For these people it would be an impediment if they were required to supply pictures of the items. I'm not one of these people but I'm pretty sure that they exist.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:54 am 
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I think this will make an already good CAM, a better place.

Progress may be difficult for some, but those that would like to participate will adapt.

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Collecting vintage tube Pilot (Pilotone) HiFi gear.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:09 am 
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Location: Toronto
I don't own a smartphone and my last two digital camera's stopped working when I upgraded my OS.

"I honestly can't think of ONE REASON why an ad would be more effective without photos ... or why a potential buyer would not want to see photos of the gear they are thinking of buying."

While this is true, it's an incomplete picture of reality. I have been able to sell many items without pictures because some buyers don't care about pictures as much as others. I'm in the same camp. I will buy without pictures if the feedback looks good. If something doesn't sell, I'll borrow a camera and take pictures.

I'm OK with this rule for new members but let's not get carried away with granny state rules. People need to learn some common sense and park their greed when a deal too good to be true presents itself.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:10 am 
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Jimmi wrote:
And ,what about the requirement as was suggested to use paypal if not an in person sale for the first so many sales. This will make more an insurance of getting back funds
from the sellers whom do not have the product to ship that this photo mandate alone cannot.


The problem is that you can still be scammed via PayPal. I'm speaking from experience here.

A buyer put a hold on his payment before he received a telephoto lens he bought from me. Based on the buyer's complaint, PayPal reversed the transaction and I was left with a negative balance in my PayPal account! So not only was I out my lens, but I owed PayPal for the cost of it!?

It took months (and a lot of effort) to get it sorted out.

Fortunately I had an email trail of my conversations with the buyer. But PayPal washed their hands of any involvement. I was left to deal with the buyer's credit card company on my own.

So beware, PayPal is not scam-free.

_________________
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." (Aristotle, 384-322 BCE)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:13 am 
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sixstringhack wrote:
Quadzilla wrote:
I don't see how it could be an 'impediment', when these same individuals seemingly have the wherewithal to operate complex audio gear, navigate the Internet, and manage online payment options. It seems like more of a political statement by flat-earth luddites than an 'impediment'. I honestly can't think of ONE REASON why an ad would be more effective without photos ... or why a potential buyer would not want to see photos of the gear they are thinking of buying.


I assume that there is a small minority of CAM users who do not own a digital camera or a decent smartphone. For these people it would be an impediment if they were required to supply pictures of the items. I'm not one of these people but I'm pretty sure that they exist.


I suppose there is that VERY small minority, but I can't imagine anyone who doesn't have a friend or relative with some form of digital camera and a basic understanding of how to use it.

Before I had a digital camera; I took 35mm photos of my gear, had the prints processed, scanned them into my computer, and put them in my eBay ads. Ads with photographs are simply more efficient, so I overcame the inconvenience.

Even though I keep asking for evidence to the contrary, I still believe that ads with photos are better than without.

-- 09 Dec 2015 10:26 --

NordicNorm wrote:
Jimmi wrote:
And ,what about the requirement as was suggested to use paypal if not an in person sale for the first so many sales. This will make more an insurance of getting back funds
from the sellers whom do not have the product to ship that this photo mandate alone cannot.


The problem is that you can still be scammed via PayPal. I'm speaking from experience here.

A buyer put a hold on his payment before he received a telephoto lens he bought from me. Based on the buyer's complaint, PayPal reversed the transaction and I was left with a negative balance in my PayPal account! So not only was I out my lens, but I owed PayPal for the cost of it!?

It took months (and a lot of effort) to get it sorted out.

Fortunately I had an email trail of my conversations with the buyer. But PayPal washed their hands of any involvement. I was left to deal with the buyer's credit card company on my own.

So beware, PayPal is not scam-free.


I have been scammed with PayPal as well. That is why I won't take it now. This leads people to insist on local pickup and cash payments ... and the inevitable moaning from Canada's Hinterland because more and more people are refusing to ship.

_________________
1978 Rickenbacker 4001, 2010 Gibson Thunderbird, and Dean Fretless Basses;
1987 Guild Nightbird, 2000 Taylor 310KCE, and Godin 5th Avenue Guitars.

If you can use one of those newfangled Internets, you can post photos in your damn classified ads. :roll:


Last edited by Quadzilla on Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:43 am 
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Location: Winnipeg, MB, CA
IMO: It's a step in the right direction. Making people register at PayPal also might deter scammers somewhat also. I think that a feedback level of (5) reached by members should suffice that they are a legitimate member in the CAM community. Also not having a decent phone cam or digital camera to take quality pictures these days doesn't fly! Ask your kid or a friend to take them for you. Until you can do that, then don't list your item!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:44 am 
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Location: London, ON, CA
admin wrote:
Quadzilla, your opinion on the matter and the points raised are known to me and I take them into consideration when making these decisions. Thanks as usual for your comments.


The thing is though, it isn't just MY opinion. I believe that it is a majority opinion. Why not ask the membership to vote on it?

_________________
1978 Rickenbacker 4001, 2010 Gibson Thunderbird, and Dean Fretless Basses;
1987 Guild Nightbird, 2000 Taylor 310KCE, and Godin 5th Avenue Guitars.

If you can use one of those newfangled Internets, you can post photos in your damn classified ads. :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:47 am 
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Location: Golden Triangle, ON, CA
NordicNorm wrote:
Jimmi wrote:
And ,what about the requirement as was suggested to use paypal if not an in person sale for the first so many sales. This will make more an insurance of getting back funds
from the sellers whom do not have the product to ship that this photo mandate alone cannot.


The problem is that you can still be scammed via PayPal. I'm speaking from experience here.

A buyer put a hold on his payment before he received a telephoto lens he bought from me. Based on the buyer's complaint, PayPal reversed the transaction and I was left with a negative balance in my PayPal account! So not only was I out my lens, but I owed PayPal for the cost of it!?

It took months (and a lot of effort) to get it sorted out.

Fortunately I had an email trail of my conversations with the buyer. But PayPal washed their hands of any involvement. I was left to deal with the buyer's credit card company on my own.

So beware, PayPal is not scam-free.


There is nothing that is scam free when the internet is involved . Not to minimize or refute your post, but
we really are talking about 2 different animals here. The photos are to reduce and impede the blight we
have seen of scammers here lately posting ads whom DO NOT have the item they claim and always
insist on EMT where once its accepted your screwed with no recoup possible, period! .
Paypal , in THIS situation would,
a/ create another hurdle for the scammers to make and one that would require a verified address
tied to the users bank/visa before they could even post here.
b/ tracking and confirmation of shipping and signing is mandatory so one, it has to
be shipped , and two it must be as described with proof of delivery.

It is, a more difficult process for the types of scams the mandatory photo is trying to fight back at.
Pay Pal , here , in this scenario will inarguably better and strengthen this taking it one step further.

What your speaking of is dishonesty which , sadly is also a problem, but one far less common
in this small community than the flood of opportunists and scammers who's sole purpose and
goal is to take your money while never intending or having anything to offer from the get go.
Confusing the two as one and the same while using Paypal as the negative takes the light
off the real problem here, the one at hand, the scammers .
I have no issue with the photos , its a good call for most, but not for all. That being said Paypal
being a necessity for your first few sales here would help make it an even more effective tool.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:50 am 
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Location: Comfort Country, ON, CA
Excellent change, admin. Scammers will not be pleased. Thanks.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:10 am 
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Posts: 454
Location: Calgary, AB, CA
Quadzilla wrote:
admin wrote:
Quadzilla, your opinion on the matter and the points raised are known to me and I take them into consideration when making these decisions. Thanks as usual for your comments.


The thing is though, it isn't just MY opinion. I believe that it is a majority opinion. Why not ask the membership to vote on it?

Let it go, and as to a vote, this is privately owned and run site and not a democracy. My "opinion" they do a great job.
Bill from the hinterland.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:10 am 
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Quadzilla wrote:
admin wrote:
Quadzilla, your opinion on the matter and the points raised are known to me and I take them into consideration when making these decisions. Thanks as usual for your comments.


The thing is though, it isn't just MY opinion. I believe that it is a majority opinion. Why not ask the membership to vote on it?


Because it's not a membership decision ?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:11 am 
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Location: London, ON, CA
Jimmi wrote:
NordicNorm wrote:
Jimmi wrote:
And ,what about the requirement as was suggested to use paypal if not an in person sale for the first so many sales. This will make more an insurance of getting back funds
from the sellers whom do not have the product to ship that this photo mandate alone cannot.


The problem is that you can still be scammed via PayPal. I'm speaking from experience here.

A buyer put a hold on his payment before he received a telephoto lens he bought from me. Based on the buyer's complaint, PayPal reversed the transaction and I was left with a negative balance in my PayPal account! So not only was I out my lens, but I owed PayPal for the cost of it!?

It took months (and a lot of effort) to get it sorted out.

Fortunately I had an email trail of my conversations with the buyer. But PayPal washed their hands of any involvement. I was left to deal with the buyer's credit card company on my own.

So beware, PayPal is not scam-free.


There is nothing that is scam free when the internet is involved . Not to minimize or refute your post, but
we really are talking about 2 different animals here. The photos are to reduce and impede the blight we
have seen of scammers here lately posting ads whom DO NOT have the item they claim and always
insist on EMT where once its accepted your screwed with no recoup possible, period! .
Paypal , in THIS situation would,
a/ create another hurdle for the scammers to make and one that would require a verified address
tied to the users bank/visa before they could even post here.
b/ tracking and confirmation of shipping and signing is mandatory so one, it has to
be shipped , and two it must be as described with proof of delivery.

It is, a more difficult process for the types of scams the mandatory photo is trying to fight back at.
Pay Pal , here , in this scenario will inarguably better and strengthen this taking it one step further.

What your speaking of is dishonesty which , sadly is also a problem, but one far less common
in this small community than the flood of opportunists and scammers who's sole purpose and
goal is to take your money while never intending or having anything to offer from the get go.
Confusing the two as one and the same while using Paypal as the negative takes the light
off the real problem here, the one at hand, the scammers .
I have no issue with the photos , its a good call for most, but not for all. That being said Paypal
being a necessity for your first few sales here would help make it an even more effective tool.


When eBay made PayPal mandatory it made local pickup transactions very difficult to manage (because PayPal insists on tracking information). Look at what eBay has evolved into ... nothing but counterfeits and Chinese mega-sellers, not hobbyists and other private sellers. If PayPal was made mandatory across the board, more and more sellers would revert to local cash sales only.

-- 09 Dec 2015 11:20 --

airdronian wrote:
Quadzilla wrote:
admin wrote:
Quadzilla, your opinion on the matter and the points raised are known to me and I take them into consideration when making these decisions. Thanks as usual for your comments.


The thing is though, it isn't just MY opinion. I believe that it is a majority opinion. Why not ask the membership to vote on it?


Because it's not a membership decision ?


I realize that, but as admin said ... "I take them (members' opinions) into consideration when making these decisions", so I take that to mean that admin wants to know what the membership wants.

_________________
1978 Rickenbacker 4001, 2010 Gibson Thunderbird, and Dean Fretless Basses;
1987 Guild Nightbird, 2000 Taylor 310KCE, and Godin 5th Avenue Guitars.

If you can use one of those newfangled Internets, you can post photos in your damn classified ads. :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:46 am 
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Quadzilla wrote:

When eBay made PayPal mandatory it made local pickup transactions very difficult to manage (because PayPal insists on tracking information). Look at what eBay has evolved into ... nothing but counterfeits and Chinese mega-sellers, not hobbyists and other private sellers. If PayPal was made mandatory across the board, more and more sellers would revert to local cash sales only.


No offence but your argument here, is also much to your own wants and needs

1/ This isn't Ebay and your NOT locked into a fee for posting ads that protections
are needed to protect profits % from sales.

2/ Your free to opt to a direct sale and remove your ad or leave it for feedback
irrespective of payment choices.

3/ As all here, you are entitled to voice and state your opinion without being
discredited for doing so as long as its done in kind and your mind full, your
needs and wishes are NOT on everyone's list of needs.
ie sellers reverting back to cash local only, that's just you not the whole
community.

PayPal for the first 5 sales here would defer very few legitimate new members
here in my opinion. It certainly would weed some of the scammers away.
And yes Admin. does want to know what the membership may want, but I
doubt that includes being down on any other suggestion but your own when
it happens to be something you have personal hate on for, which I am certain no one can
deny its positives here when coupled to the photos for what this is attempting to
battle and achieve.
I have no axe in this other than impeding as many of the scumbags preying and scamming
members here. I think the photos are a good idea and necessary now, but I also feel
one more hurdle for them is more important to attach to it that makes it much harder
for them to even get to the photo part and ad first. Plus the added benefit of protecting the buyer
from being cheated which, I took this whole exercise to be about in the first place.


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