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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:29 am 
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I should add that my CAM transactions have been overwhelmingly positive. But sometimes buying without auditioning is risky. Caveat emptor.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:44 am 
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There is a big difference between an 'audition' and a 'demonstration'. That is what separates the private used marketplace (CAM and kijiji) from retailers. If you want a lengthy 'audition' to evaluate the sound of a piece of gear, go to a retailer and pay retail prices.

You should only expect that used gear be subject to a 'demonstration' to show that it is working as it should. A lengthy audition of a used piece is not automatic, and should be discussed BEFORE you show up at the front door with a stack of LPs and sprawl out on a guy's sofa with a beer.

There is a difference between something not working properly and not liking the sound of something that IS working properly. Decide that you want a specific piece of gear BEFORE you write and ask to buy it, then ask for a 'demonstration' that it is working properly. Be considerate of a person's family time and living space.

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1978 Rickenbacker 4001, 2010 Gibson Thunderbird, and Dean Fretless Basses;
1987 Guild Nightbird, 2000 Taylor 310KCE, and Godin 5th Avenue Guitars.

If you can use one of those newfangled Internets, you can post photos in your damn classified ads. :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:51 am 
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Quadzilla wrote:
There is a big difference between an 'audition' and a 'demonstration'. That is what separates the private used marketplace (CAM and kijiji) from retailers. If you want a lengthy 'audition' to evaluate the sound of a piece of gear, go to a retailer and pay retail prices.

You should only expect that used gear be subject to a 'demonstration' to show that it is working as it should. A lengthy audition of a used piece is not automatic, and should be discussed BEFORE you show up at the front door with a stack of LPs and sprawl out on a guy's sofa with a beer.

There is a difference between something not working properly and not liking the sound of something that IS working properly. Decide that you want a specific piece of gear BEFORE you write and ask to buy it, then ask for a 'demonstration' that it is working properly. Be considerate of a person's family time and living space.


I agree with all you've said. I wish I knew for certain the item was working properly. I have to find someone else that has one. Right now I can't honestly sell it without knowing if it is damaged or not.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:07 pm 
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I didn't mean to put a damper on the conversation..


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:31 pm 
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Quadzilla wrote:
There is a big difference between an 'audition' and a 'demonstration'. That is what separates the private used marketplace (CAM and kijiji) from retailers. If you want a lengthy 'audition' to evaluate the sound of a piece of gear, go to a retailer and pay retail prices.

You should only expect that used gear be subject to a 'demonstration' to show that it is working as it should. A lengthy audition of a used piece is not automatic, and should be discussed BEFORE you show up at the front door with a stack of LPs and sprawl out on a guy's sofa with a beer.

There is a difference between something not working properly and not liking the sound of something that IS working properly. Decide that you want a specific piece of gear BEFORE you write and ask to buy it, then ask for a 'demonstration' that it is working properly. Be considerate of a person's family time and living space.


While I understand 101% that it could get annoying dealing with tire kickers I'm not sure I agree with putting the work on the retailer to demonstrate a product and then turn around and walk out the door to purchase someone's used piece at 40-70% of new. I couldn't do that but I imagine many actually do just that. It's one reason why I don't go into audio shops to demo much any longer. I often can't afford new because of champagne taste & a Molson's budget. In addition, an item 10 years old most likely isn't in production any longer so who knows what might sound like. A purchaser has read a couple of reviews and is interested but might not have a frame of reference. Esp with something like a speaker which can be a love it or hate it proposition. In addition $2k might be chump change to the seller but could also be 2 yrs of savings for another.

I'd offer a demo but feel them out pretty good first via a phone call.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:42 pm 
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shawnwes wrote:
Quadzilla wrote:
There is a big difference between an 'audition' and a 'demonstration'. That is what separates the private used marketplace (CAM and kijiji) from retailers. If you want a lengthy 'audition' to evaluate the sound of a piece of gear, go to a retailer and pay retail prices.

You should only expect that used gear be subject to a 'demonstration' to show that it is working as it should. A lengthy audition of a used piece is not automatic, and should be discussed BEFORE you show up at the front door with a stack of LPs and sprawl out on a guy's sofa with a beer.

There is a difference between something not working properly and not liking the sound of something that IS working properly. Decide that you want a specific piece of gear BEFORE you write and ask to buy it, then ask for a 'demonstration' that it is working properly. Be considerate of a person's family time and living space.


While I understand 101% that it could get annoying dealing with tire kickers I'm not sure I agree with putting the work on the retailer to demonstrate a product and then turn around and walk out the door to purchase someone's used piece at 40-70% of new. I couldn't do that but I imagine many actually do just that. It's one reason why I don't go into audio shops to demo much any longer. I often can't afford new because of champagne taste & a Molson's budget. In addition, an item 10 years old most likely isn't in production any longer so who knows what might sound like. A purchaser has read a couple of reviews and is interested but might not have a frame of reference. Esp with something like a speaker which can be a love it or hate it proposition. In addition $2k might be chump change to the seller but could also be 2 yrs of savings for another.

I'd offer a demo but feel them out pretty good first via a phone call.


I said NOTHING about putting the work on the retailer. I DID SAY "If you want a lengthy 'audition' to evaluate the sound of a piece of gear, go to a retailer and pay retail prices." In case you missed it again ... "go to the retailer and pay retail prices". To put it another way, BUY FROM A RETAILER!

If a cheap price is the only driving factor, then you have to decide whether the risk is worth it ... and you might have to kiss a few frogs to get one you fall in love with. We have all bought used gear that we weren't thrilled with, and we have learned from the experience. There is always someone who will buy it from you.

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1978 Rickenbacker 4001, 2010 Gibson Thunderbird, and Dean Fretless Basses;
1987 Guild Nightbird, 2000 Taylor 310KCE, and Godin 5th Avenue Guitars.

If you can use one of those newfangled Internets, you can post photos in your damn classified ads. :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:25 pm 
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Quadzilla wrote:
shawnwes wrote:
Quadzilla wrote:
There is a big difference between an 'audition' and a 'demonstration'. That is what separates the private used marketplace (CAM and kijiji) from retailers. If you want a lengthy 'audition' to evaluate the sound of a piece of gear, go to a retailer and pay retail prices.

You should only expect that used gear be subject to a 'demonstration' to show that it is working as it should. A lengthy audition of a used piece is not automatic, and should be discussed BEFORE you show up at the front door with a stack of LPs and sprawl out on a guy's sofa with a beer.

There is a difference between something not working properly and not liking the sound of something that IS working properly. Decide that you want a specific piece of gear BEFORE you write and ask to buy it, then ask for a 'demonstration' that it is working properly. Be considerate of a person's family time and living space.


While I understand 101% that it could get annoying dealing with tire kickers I'm not sure I agree with putting the work on the retailer to demonstrate a product and then turn around and walk out the door to purchase someone's used piece at 40-70% of new. I couldn't do that but I imagine many actually do just that. It's one reason why I don't go into audio shops to demo much any longer. I often can't afford new because of champagne taste & a Molson's budget. In addition, an item 10 years old most likely isn't in production any longer so who knows what might sound like. A purchaser has read a couple of reviews and is interested but might not have a frame of reference. Esp with something like a speaker which can be a love it or hate it proposition. In addition $2k might be chump change to the seller but could also be 2 yrs of savings for another.

I'd offer a demo but feel them out pretty good first via a phone call.


I said NOTHING about putting the work on the retailer. I DID SAY "If you want a lengthy 'audition' to evaluate the sound of a piece of gear, go to a retailer and pay retail prices." In case you missed it again ... "go to the retailer and pay retail prices". To put it another way, BUY FROM A RETAILER!

If a cheap price is the only driving factor, then you have to decide whether the risk is worth it ... and you might have to kiss a few frogs to get one you fall in love with. We have all bought used gear that we weren't thrilled with, and we have learned from the experience. There is always someone who will buy it from you.


Sorry Quad, mea culpa - I should have re-phrased my comment or left out the first part of your quote.
Some of you who move quite a bit of gear in a year most likely are annoyed by the lookie-loos and I get that. As someone who only occasionally sells an item locally I have a different view & I'm ok with a demo as long as I am comfortable after talking with them for a couple of minutes that I think the item would meet their needs. If I lived in the COU and was asked to demo 5x a day maybe not so much.

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Ariston RD11 Superieur, RB250 & Tecnoweight, DV20X2H, LCR MkIII, Dacmagic100, Exposure 2010S2, AS Statement SEs, AS Testaments, PSB GT1s


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:23 am 
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So, let me get this straight. If you want an "audition" you need to go to a retailer and buy from the retailer. If you are buying used, you shouldn't expect an audition, only a "demonstration". I disagree. I think that it is entirely reasonable to expect an audition when buying used equipment. It is important to be up front with this request, but it isn't an unreasonable request because based on the above logic, you shouldn't audition equipment at a retailer, only to turn around and buy it elsewhere used (I agree with this). But if we all subscribe to this philosophy (buyer AND seller), then the seller should happily provide an audition for a serious buyer (i.e. comes with the cash and an ability to transport the gear home (especially true for speakers).

The last set of speakers I purchased I spent a couple of hours auditioning the gear in the seller's home where we had a nice coffee together, learned about some new music and talked gear. I brought an SUV and drove an hour to get there, which indicated my seriousness. Sellers like this gentleman are the sort of people that make CAM a great place. However, I am on record that I'm not a fan of flippers. Flippers are more likely to not allow an audition because they make money through volume and allowing auditions can be time consuming with that model. I'm happy to forego a purchase from a flipper but others may not be. It comes down to personal choice.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:40 am 
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Tangram wrote:
So, let me get this straight. If you want an "audition" you need to go to a retailer and buy from the retailer. If you are buying used, you shouldn't expect an audition, only a "demonstration". I disagree. I think that it is entirely reasonable to expect an audition when buying used equipment. It is important to be up front with this request, but it isn't an unreasonable request because based on the above logic, you shouldn't audition equipment at a retailer, only to turn around and buy it elsewhere used (I agree with this). But if we all subscribe to this philosophy (buyer AND seller), then the seller should happily provide an audition for a serious buyer (i.e. comes with the cash and an ability to transport the gear home (especially true for speakers).

The last set of speakers I purchased I spent a couple of hours auditioning the gear in the seller's home where we had a nice coffee together, learned about some new music and talked gear. I brought an SUV and drove an hour to get there, which indicated my seriousness. Sellers like this gentleman are the sort of people that make CAM a great place. However, I am on record that I'm not a fan of flippers. Flippers are more likely to not allow an audition because they make money through volume and allowing auditions can be time consuming with that model. I'm happy to forego a purchase from a flipper but others may not be. It comes down to personal choice.


I realize that disagreeing with a Premium member will likely get me a warning, but you do know that most Premium members are flippers, right? :roll:

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1978 Rickenbacker 4001, 2010 Gibson Thunderbird, and Dean Fretless Basses;
1987 Guild Nightbird, 2000 Taylor 310KCE, and Godin 5th Avenue Guitars.

If you can use one of those newfangled Internets, you can post photos in your damn classified ads. :roll:


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:06 am 
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Quadzilla wrote:
There is a big difference between an 'audition' and a 'demonstration'. That is what separates the private used marketplace (CAM and kijiji) from retailers. If you want a lengthy 'audition' to evaluate the sound of a piece of gear, go to a retailer and pay retail prices.

Agreed. I haven't once asked for more than a demonstration when buying used unless the seller insists on discussing their gear. When I'm buying retail I take advantage of having the facilities to audition and compare gear, the added services are part of paying retail price. On that note I hope buyers with self inflated high moral standards are buying their gear from retailers and supporting the industry, kudos to those people.


Last edited by James_W on Thu May 17, 2018 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:07 am 
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Tangram wrote:
So, let me get this straight. If you want an "audition" you need to go to a retailer and buy from the retailer. If you are buying used, you shouldn't expect an audition, only a "demonstration". I disagree. I think that it is entirely reasonable to expect an audition when buying used equipment. It is important to be up front with this request, but it isn't an unreasonable request because based on the above logic, you shouldn't audition equipment at a retailer, only to turn around and buy it elsewhere used (I agree with this). But if we all subscribe to this philosophy (buyer AND seller), then the seller should happily provide an audition for a serious buyer (i.e. comes with the cash and an ability to transport the gear home (especially true for speakers).

The last set of speakers I purchased I spent a couple of hours auditioning the gear in the seller's home where we had a nice coffee together, learned about some new music and talked gear. I brought an SUV and drove an hour to get there, which indicated my seriousness. Sellers like this gentleman are the sort of people that make CAM a great place. However, I am on record that I'm not a fan of flippers. Flippers are more likely to not allow an audition because they make money through volume and allowing auditions can be time consuming with that model. I'm happy to forego a purchase from a flipper but others may not be. It comes down to personal choice.

I have always been open to an audition as it does open up an opportunity to share a passion. This did change a bit though after a recent experience with a CAM member. Spending an hour plus and then getting lowballed soured things. If he had been upfront about what he decided he would pay I would have declined it from the beginning.
I do have a set up just inside my entrance. I bring whatever is being auditioned to there instead of the basement. There is no sweet spot chair and normal kitchen traffic remains close by. It makes much quicker work of an audition.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:15 am 
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Tangram wrote:
So, let me get this straight. If you want an "audition" you need to go to a retailer and buy from the retailer. If you are buying used, you shouldn't expect an audition, only a "demonstration". I disagree. I think that it is entirely reasonable to expect an audition when buying used equipment. It is important to be up front with this request, but it isn't an unreasonable request because based on the above logic, you shouldn't audition equipment at a retailer, only to turn around and buy it elsewhere used (I agree with this). But if we all subscribe to this philosophy (buyer AND seller), then the seller should happily provide an audition for a serious buyer (i.e. comes with the cash and an ability to transport the gear home (especially true for speakers).

The last set of speakers I purchased I spent a couple of hours auditioning the gear in the seller's home where we had a nice coffee together, learned about some new music and talked gear. I brought an SUV and drove an hour to get there, which indicated my seriousness. Sellers like this gentleman are the sort of people that make CAM a great place. However, I am on record that I'm not a fan of flippers. Flippers are more likely to not allow an audition because they make money through volume and allowing auditions can be time consuming with that model. I'm happy to forego a purchase from a flipper but others may not be. It comes down to personal choice.



It may be reasonable to ask for one, but not to 'expect' one. Don't be surprised to hear no more often than yes. Most people are trying to sell equipment because they want to sell it, not to have a playdate....

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:41 am 
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Che Cavolo wrote:
It may be reasonable to ask for one, but not to 'expect' one. Don't be surprised to hear no more often than yes. Most people are trying to sell equipment because they want to sell it, not to have a playdate....


Too many guys are afflicted with "everybody should think like I do". They enjoy audio play dates, so everyone should enjoy audio play dates.

The difference between a 2 hour 'audition' with a dealer and a 10 minute 'demonstration' with a guy selling used gear is that dealers are there to make money. Most hobbyists are not, and we usually lose money when we sell. That two hours is a cost of doing business for that profit.

Dealers have everything set up in listening rooms that are designed to showcase their products. I hate having to dismantle my system to hook up used gear, disturbing cable routing and speaker positioning. Some people have families and pets, and some people have a lot less spare time than others. Bring on the Board Warning. I am ready for it.

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1978 Rickenbacker 4001, 2010 Gibson Thunderbird, and Dean Fretless Basses;
1987 Guild Nightbird, 2000 Taylor 310KCE, and Godin 5th Avenue Guitars.

If you can use one of those newfangled Internets, you can post photos in your damn classified ads. :roll:


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:00 am 
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Che Cavolo wrote:
Tangram wrote:
So, let me get this straight. If you want an "audition" you need to go to a retailer and buy from the retailer. If you are buying used, you shouldn't expect an audition, only a "demonstration". I disagree. I think that it is entirely reasonable to expect an audition when buying used equipment. It is important to be up front with this request, but it isn't an unreasonable request because based on the above logic, you shouldn't audition equipment at a retailer, only to turn around and buy it elsewhere used (I agree with this). But if we all subscribe to this philosophy (buyer AND seller), then the seller should happily provide an audition for a serious buyer (i.e. comes with the cash and an ability to transport the gear home (especially true for speakers).

The last set of speakers I purchased I spent a couple of hours auditioning the gear in the seller's home where we had a nice coffee together, learned about some new music and talked gear. I brought an SUV and drove an hour to get there, which indicated my seriousness. Sellers like this gentleman are the sort of people that make CAM a great place. However, I am on record that I'm not a fan of flippers. Flippers are more likely to not allow an audition because they make money through volume and allowing auditions can be time consuming with that model. I'm happy to forego a purchase from a flipper but others may not be. It comes down to personal choice.



It may be reasonable to ask for one, but not to 'expect' one. Don't be surprised to hear no more often than yes. Most people are trying to sell equipment because they want to sell it, not to have a playdate....


But if it takes a "playdate" as you put it to sell it, then maybe they should play. All within reason. I actually didn't haggle with my playdate. He gave me a price and I paid it. I did that because he was a good guy and he took the time to audition the equipment for me. I believe the term for this transaction is "win-win" which I'm fine with.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:48 am 
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Quadzilla, I wonder if you believe all sellers should be offended about providing auditions (it seems you're saying only buyers should only inquire about auditions from Retailers). More than a few members have already stated over the years that they've met friends and fellow hobbyists through transactions that sometimes go beyond a mere 5 minute demonstration. You have your opinion about auditions, and others have their own. If a seller meets a buyer to whom they are happy to offer an extended audition, then it seems reasonable that everyone can sell or buy as they wish, and as long as they don't impose their needs on you then you ought to be more than happy for their happy results. CAM is a fairly open ended marketplace, if a seller doesn't like to provide auditions or they are not comfortable providing one to a specific individual then that's their choice and hopefully buyers respect that, although it might mean some sellers pass on the opportunity to buy. If, on the other hand, a seller and buyer feel good about an audition and even share a beer or two while their at it, that's something to celebrate I think, as it encapsulates the best ideals of what we hope to see on CAM.

There are good transaction experiences and bad ones. The hard work of the moderators and the caliber of the community means that my personal and sincere hope is always that the good ones are what we encounter more often than not, but that's my constant optimism and persistent aim for improvement that drives that perspective.


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