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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:04 pm 
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Location: San Miguel de Allende, , MX
Well the day finally arrived and my son moved out, gonna miss him but it was time...

As a result I have a new listening room to set up, bigger than my old 10 by 11 room..I had it working pretty good with acoustic treatments and lots of experimenting with speaker positioning..

My new room is approximately 11' by 17' so I'm not dealing with an almost square room :)

I have Totem model 1 speakers powered by Audio Research M100 monobloc amps...

I've been experimenting with speaker placement and currently have them about 3' from the rear wall...in my old room I had my listening chair placed right up against the wall and I'm presuming that was accentuating the bass but overall it sounded pretty good with lots of acoustic treatments.

My new room seems a little thin on the bass and I'm wondering if I'm setting things up properly or if I just got used to over emphasized bass in my old room.

Any suggestions on where I should be placing my listening chair in my new room. I read one web site that suggested placing it 38% of the length of the room from the wall opposite the speakers as this is the best place to avoid nulls and other issues...

For speaker placement I'm using the Cardas formula for the ratio between distance form the rear and side walls....

I'd appreciate any input from anyone who has a similar sized room...


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:24 pm 
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ford07 wrote:
My new room seems a little thin on the bass and I'm wondering if I'm setting things up properly or if I just got used to over emphasized bass in my old room.

Any suggestions on where I should be placing my listening chair in my new room.

Mine is 10 x 16 so they're similar. Can you work the speakers closer to the corner? May be a compromising way to emphasize the lowers, but it's a start.

What kind of chair do you have. If it is a recliner, you'll have to compensate for the different locations of you head within the room.
Seriously........ :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:25 pm 
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Quote; "My new room seems a little thin on the bass and I'm wondering if I'm setting things up properly or if I just got used to over emphasized bass in my old room."

Could be, your 11 feet was emphasizing 50HZ. Now your 17 feet is supporting 32 Hz where your speaker is -9db.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:13 pm 
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Play some music with a lot of bass energy (preferably a test disc with pure frequencies). Walk down the center line of your room bent over so your head is about waist level. Notice how the bass will be louder or quieter at particular frequencies at different spots. Find the spot where it is best averaged out, i.e. not too loud or not too quiet at a variety of frequencies. In your room my experience tells me that you want the speakers about 2 feet from the back wall, 2 feet from the side walls and you should sit about 1.5 feet from the back wall.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:26 pm 
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Just to elaborate a little. This is actually a pretty ideal small room. You can check out the room modes here:

http://www.klipschcorner.com/Tools/ModeCalc.aspx

You will feel a little mid-bass leanness but as I suggested, if you sit about 1.5 feet from the back wall it will average this out. The room is actually nearly flat as long as you don't sit smack dab in the middle.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:44 pm 
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Thanks guys for your responses

Android, I'm not using a recliner, it's a leather low back chair, kinda like the TD bank ad ones :)

avhed after checking the room node calculator I get what you're saying, my speakers are down 9db at the lower frequency, must be time for some new speakers :lol: Gunnar will be happy to hear that...

Gunnar I'll try your suggestions...I've gotten so used to a near field arrangement in my small room I never even considered sitting that far back from my speakers....this setup almost requires an engineering degree!!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:50 pm 
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I had a room almost identical to that one and it was the best room I ever had so don't fear. In almost all rooms you can move the speakers and listening position to a point where the modes "average" out and the peaks and valleys aren't too noticeable. My last room I had my Quads 8 feet from the front wall and sat 6" from the back wall. Room before that they were 8 inches from the front wall!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:56 pm 
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Your room dimensions, as Gunnar, mentioned should not give you any serious modes in the low end, you will end up with a couple of modes that coincide above 200 Hz, 250 Hz, 300 Hz and 350. These modes are not an issue since only two dimensions at once roughly coincide and they are well above the point where real low frequency issues occur.
You may want to consider positioning your speakers along the long wall, for a couple of reasons...
1. You will be able to spread them quite far apart while not having any side wall issues. Your soundstage will be wide and free of side wall interference.
2. Sitting with your back close to a wall will re-enforce the bass frequencies, the hi and mid reflections from behind are too close to be perceived as "reverb" or distinct echo, so don't worry about that.
3. You will be able to very precisely tune the amount of bass you want by varying the position of the speaker relative to the wall behind it, with a rear ported mini-monitor inches will make quite a big difference. Too close to the wall and you will have too much interaction with the wall, too far and you will roll off the bass, I have my DeCapos about 1 meter from the rear wall....I can tell ya, inches will matter, seams finicky but actually you end up able to precisely tune your setup.

Your room dimensions are close to mine, for monitors this positioning is working out great for me. If you do keep it the other way, try always to use the rule of thirds with close walls, never have a speaker equal distance from a side and back wall, think in thirds, its natures magical golden ratio.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:18 pm 
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gunnar wrote:
I had a room almost identical to that one and it was the best room I ever had so don't fear. In almost all rooms you can move the speakers and listening position to a point where the modes "average" out and the peaks and valleys aren't too noticeable. My last room I had my Quads 8 feet from the front wall and sat 6" from the back wall. Room before that they were 8 inches from the front wall!


Except for those rooms which share identical (or nearly identical) measurements for multiple dimensions. In those cases even firing across the diagonal seldom realizes decent results, particularly in a smaller space where the first and second resonant modes for each dimension are up in the mid-bass where the action is.

Happy Trails!
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:27 am 
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I've had Model Ones for a couple of years and my suggestion would be to take them further from the back wall. I've always liked them better that way. Also, make sure that they are facing straight to the back wall and toe them in only if absolutly necessary. You might loose some bass reinforcement, but you'll get more definition out of it. These are the recomendations that Vince Bruzzese gave me when I asked me for ways to optimize my speaker set up. He also told me to get the speakers really near one to another, 4 or 5 feet apart, but I prefered them placed a little wider than that. I've also experimented with a subwoofer for the frequencies below 50Hz and was really pleased with the result.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:30 am 
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Using a Roomtune deluxe from Michael Green in each front corner should also help alot.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:04 am 
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For listening position, I usually suggest drawing a 30 degree angle from the centre of your speakers and then having your head inside the intersection. Start with your speakers pointed straight out, and toe in, in small increments until the soundstage meets in the middle, if required, not just bass and vocals which are usually always dead centre anyways.

3 feet from the wall is a good starting point for the 'make the speakers disappear' effect. Try and have at least a similar distance behind you. Drawing a guide line on your back wall to centre your system is also a good idea.

This is a fairly typical 'recording engineer' positioning that lets you hear a close representation of what the engineer heard. From there you can adjust your set-up to suit your tastes and use treatment (back corners is a good place to start for bass, try and create an adjustable trap). The head against the back wall always gives nice bass boost effect :), but it isn't real.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:37 pm 
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Quote:
From there you can adjust your set-up to suit your tastes and use treatment (back corners is a good place to start for bass, try and create an adjustable trap).


Given the room dimensions and the reasonably well behaved modes in his room I don't see why bass traps would be necessary. Varying Positioning his gear and listening spot should be adjustable enough.


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The head against the back wall always gives nice bass boost effect Smile, but it isn't real.


Real is when you set up your speakers in a field and listen, everything else is going to have an effect, bass traps are not "real" either, I would not advocate glueing one's head to the wall, and I would definitely not back
against the wall if shooting down the long end of a room because the corners are too close then, but for shooting across the short side it will be very easy to tune the bass from adjusting behind the speaker, being on the same "width" dimension this will have a direct relationship with what the head on wall will hear.

Ford07,
I have uploaded some pics to my gallery to give an idea of my setup, my room is a bit bigger and has some broken up dimensions but this may give an idea about shooting across width. My speakers are 9ft from centre to centre and just under 9ft to my head in the listening position giving me just a tad bit more width than an equilateral triangle.

Quote:
I usually suggest drawing a 30 degree angle from the centre of your speakers

Grant....you meant 60 degrees on the inside angles right?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:41 pm 
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Grant
I can see why one would need a bass trap if shooting down the length, this position puts the listener quite close to the side walls and back corners no matter where he sits, another reason I advocate shooting width across. I didn't mean to dismiss your suggestion :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:07 pm 
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Thanks for all your responses, looks like I've got some experimenting to do....I am liking the idea of trying the long wall as it takes the equipment away from in front of the fireplace meaning I'll actually be able to use it...

The room isn't completely rectangular as there is an opening at the left rear and the back wall is really a half wall with a bar on top and another 3 feet or so behind it under the stairs....should stuff it full of insulation and it'll make a great bass trap :)

As always experimentation will be required to get it exactly right but your ideas have given me a place to start...Thanks

Rick


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