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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:39 pm 
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ADCO wrote:
Ya... I have re read that and am still not sure what's going on except to say that no matter how you look at it his description is 3.5 " of drywall and no matter how you look at that there is just a s..t load better ways to do this.... Not to mention that at those weights and the basic governing 40lb per sq ft static weight for a structure I'm sure the joist system is way overloaded , in particular remember there is furniture above your head as well....assuming we are talking about floor joist and worse if we are talking about engineered trusses...

We have been part of many high end theatre and isolated tech rooms and I have yet to see this spec, or anything like it in one of those builds....


That is an incredible load on floor joists if a code standard sizing and spacing
was used and not built to a spec. load. The load of flooring on top , plus furniture , appliances
and people , .................... scary.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:24 pm 
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Jimmi wrote:
ADCO wrote:
Ya... I have re read that and am still not sure what's going on except to say that no matter how you look at it his description is 3.5 " of drywall and no matter how you look at that there is just a s..t load better ways to do this.... Not to mention that at those weights and the basic governing 40lb per sq ft static weight for a structure I'm sure the joist system is way overloaded , in particular remember there is furniture above your head as well....assuming we are talking about floor joist and worse if we are talking about engineered trusses...

We have been part of many high end theatre and isolated tech rooms and I have yet to see this spec, or anything like it in one of those builds....


That is an incredible load on floor joists if a code standard sizing and spacing
was used and not built to a spec. load. The load of flooring on top , plus furniture , appliances
and people , .................... scary.


But think about it Jimmi. If it caves in, it doubles the room volume and does wonders for the acoustic proportions of the room. The sound would be glorious! :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:08 pm 
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OBI56 wrote:
Jimmi wrote:

That is an incredible load on floor joists if a code standard sizing and spacing
was used and not built to a spec. load. The load of flooring on top , plus furniture , appliances
and people , .................... scary.


But think about it Jimmi. If it caves in, it doubles the room volume and does wonders for the acoustic proportions of the room. The sound would be glorious! :mrgreen:


........is this where the idea of the , "In-Law apartment with separate entrance" came from, :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:50 pm 
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Sorry guys, yes I am guilty of one or two typos (eg. a combo of 5/8 and 1/2" not 7/8)plus a far from properly detailed description. I hope nobody actually tried what I suggested.
It is actually only 3 walls that have 5 layers, not the ceiling.

In the ceiling I taped all duct seams then covered them with thin mass loaded vinyl pieces (these are stapled to the underside of the floor and do not add weight to the resilient channel). Next I stuffed between all the 2x8 ceiling joists with roxul safe n sound. The resilient channel was screwed on perpendicular to the floor joists. I made the mistake of only using two layers of 1/2" drywall plus two 3lb jugs of green glue in between each of two pieces. First layer long side perpendicular to the channel and parallel to the joists. Second layer overlaps the joints and runs perpendicular to the first layer.
Did the same on the walls and then began late night listen testing. I was not at all impressed with the soundproofness when playing my large 3 way spks. at max volume.
So the next day added a third layer of drywall plus 1 jug of greenglue to each piece, this time 5/8" thickness. More late night listen tests and the ceiling was now totally soundproof to the room above on the main floor.
My basement sound room is split almost in half by the tunnel plus a steel C channel. The larger side of the room between the C and the outer wall spans 10' wide x 17' along the length of the channel. So instead of the standard 2 layers of 5/8 totaling 1-1/4". I have 1-5/8" thickness with my three layers. Plus an extra 3-6lb of green glue on each of two of the three 4x8 sheets.
I will have to look into it but I hope this does not exceed the rating of my resilient channel or the ceiling/floor.
(4x8 sheet is 32sq feet, so say approx. 8lbs of glue plus 1.625" thick of sheet rock. each of two 1/2" sheets is 1.225lbs/sq foot the one 5/8" sheet is 2.2lbs/sq foot, say 8lb of green glue total for each 32sq feet or 0.25lbs/sq foot. For a grand total of 4.9lbs per square foot
If its true that resilient channel is only rated for 3lb per square foot then perhaps I am in trouble. But even the recommended 2 layers of 5/8 plus green glue would also be to much for the channel.

Making the walls completely soundproof to the upstairs was another matter. I added a fourth layer with green glue to the walls nearest the speakers. The night listen was better, but still not to my complete satisfaction. So a fifth layer of 5/8" plus glue was added around the stereo area and now I am finally happy. I can turn it up to eleven at any time of day or night and nobody can hear a thing.
Perhaps in an earthquake the five layers on the walls around my stereo may just fall inward, yes its true. These are approx. 9.5lbs per square foot (ouch) But at least they are not hanging over my head. I would suspect for this type of horizontal loading that the res. channels would have a higher lbs rating. I will have to check with the supplier just to get the lowdown on the actual ratings of what I bought.
Perhaps I should have spent extra for the heavier C type channel and the Genie clips. Then I likely wouldn't have needed so many wall layers to be completely satisfied.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:01 am 
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Location: Burlington, ON, CA
You guys are going all the way!

I just did the simple stuff (Roxul in all interior walls and ceiling joist bays, Safe n Sound solid core door, weather stripping around the door, stuffed the entire bulkhead with pink insulation) and have decent reduction in sound transmission from basement to main floor, and excellent isolation from the 2nd floor area. I did 5/8 drywall on the ceiling, and 1/2 everywhere else.

I can listen in the basement at 85-90 dB's with no issue for the family sleeping.

With all that y'all are doing, you must be able to totally go for it!

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:00 am 
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I did find that the weather stripping around the doors made a massive difference. Even more than replacing the old doors with solid core ones.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:12 am 
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What kind of weather stripping did you use? Was it just foam tape around the frame or did you add sweeps as well?


Last edited by Brooke on Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:13 am 
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newmusic wrote:
Sorry guys, yes I am guilty of one or two typos (eg. a combo of 5/8 and 1/2" not 7/8)plus a far from properly detailed description. I hope nobody actually tried what I suggested.
It is actually only 3 walls that have 5 layers, not the ceiling.

In the ceiling I taped all duct seams then covered them with thin mass loaded vinyl pieces (these are stapled to the underside of the floor and do not add weight to the resilient channel). Next I stuffed between all the 2x8 ceiling joists with roxul safe n sound. The resilient channel was screwed on perpendicular to the floor joists. I made the mistake of only using two layers of 1/2" drywall plus two 3lb jugs of green glue in between each of two pieces. First layer long side perpendicular to the channel and parallel to the joists. Second layer overlaps the joints and runs perpendicular to the first layer.
Did the same on the walls and then began late night listen testing. I was not at all impressed with the soundproofness when playing my large 3 way spks. at max volume.
So the next day added a third layer of drywall plus 1 jug of greenglue to each piece, this time 5/8" thickness. More late night listen tests and the ceiling was now totally soundproof to the room above on the main floor.
My basement sound room is split almost in half by the tunnel plus a steel C channel. The larger side of the room between the C and the outer wall spans 10' wide x 17' along the length of the channel. So instead of the standard 2 layers of 5/8 totaling 1-1/4". I have 1-5/8" thickness with my three layers. Plus an extra 3-6lb of green glue on each of two of the three 4x8 sheets.
I will have to look into it but I hope this does not exceed the rating of my resilient channel or the ceiling/floor.
(4x8 sheet is 32sq feet, so say approx. 8lbs of glue plus 1.625" thick of sheet rock. each of two 1/2" sheets is 1.225lbs/sq foot the one 5/8" sheet is 2.2lbs/sq foot, say 8lb of green glue total for each 32sq feet or 0.25lbs/sq foot. For a grand total of 4.9lbs per square foot
If its true that resilient channel is only rated for 3lb per square foot then perhaps I am in trouble. But even the recommended 2 layers of 5/8 plus green glue would also be to much for the channel.

Making the walls completely soundproof to the upstairs was another matter. I added a fourth layer with green glue to the walls nearest the speakers. The night listen was better, but still not to my complete satisfaction. So a fifth layer of 5/8" plus glue was added around the stereo area and now I am finally happy. I can turn it up to eleven at any time of day or night and nobody can hear a thing.
Perhaps in an earthquake the five layers on the walls around my stereo may just fall inward, yes its true. These are approx. 9.5lbs per square foot (ouch) But at least they are not hanging over my head. I would suspect for this type of horizontal loading that the res. channels would have a higher lbs rating. I will have to check with the supplier just to get the lowdown on the actual ratings of what I bought.
Perhaps I should have spent extra for the heavier C type channel and the Genie clips. Then I likely wouldn't have needed so many wall layers to be completely satisfied.


Jeepers I'm glad you cleared that up.... Certainly appears then that you are on the right path... As you probably know there are as many ways to isolate a room as there are to ask how....

Our typical installations try to basically build a room with a room when ever dimensions allow so there is as few mechanical connections to the house structure as possible .... In the absence of that our typical and successful cieling treatment goes as follows

Full coverage of cavity in joists filled with Roxal safe and sound
One layer of a product called Sonopan. ( a tentest like material)
1x3 strapping ever 12" to allow more fasteners in the resilient channel
Resilient channel mounted perpendicular to strapping 12" on centen
2 layers of 5/8 cdx drywall

Now here is the important part , preferably you build out your cieling first throughout the room spanning from wall to wall BUT leaving a 3/8" gap all around... Then do a similar wall treatment leaving the first layer of drywall about 3/8" down from cieling and up from the floor...and caulk those gaps with acoustic sealent . Then apply the second layer of 5/8" on the wall , tape to finish....

This is a very successful entry level procedure that will effectively de-couple the room from the structure and provide excellent sound barrier... Make note at all times that sound is like pressurized water it will try to find a way to leak out.... Doors, windows, duct work , electrical boxes etc... So be sure to adequately deal with those.

Anyway we have gone much much further than this in some of the builds but this system really performs well for the cost


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:32 am 
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Yes I added the foam sealant around the door frames as well as sweeps on the bottom. Really heavy duty foam strips are available from Wilrep but even the $5 home hardware stuff will work wonders.
And in addition to green glue between the layers. I did leave the small gap between walls and ceilings. Then filled the gap with a product called acoustical caulking. Also used it around the lower perimeter of the room, (drywall to 2x4), at the base, and in the vertical seams in the wall, and around in wall electrical plugs. The inside of each electrical plug box was also lined with a special fire/sound proof putty.
I didn't learn about Sonopan until it was to late to try it. I also wished I had of trimmed the wall frame 2x4's just below the ceiling and then tap conned an angle brace into the cement wall. This may have further de-coupled the walls from the floor above, and allowed way fewer layers of drywall. I forgot to mention that I spray foamed 3" thick on the concrete walls in between the 2x4's before starting with the drywall. Hopefully this solidified the wall backing 2x4's enough to hold up the 9.5lbs per square foot of drywall that followed.
So is the room safe? Are my 2x8's in the ceiling overloaded on the wider 10'x17'long span at 4.9lbs/sq.ft.? Is the resilient channel going to come down on my head or will the walls fall in? Ime a bit nervous now. Anyone here know how to calculate the acceptable maximum loads?

Any advice on how to take this much further ADCO? I do have 2 sound rooms and may want to tackle the second one in the future.


Last edited by newmusic on Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:57 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:47 am 
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Location: St.Catharines, ON, CA
Huck,

Kinetics Noise Control has a office in Cambridge also Mason Industries has a dealer in Burlington.
These companies have wealth of info on their websites.

WSDG has some case studies on their website.

Gary


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:12 am 
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I just used the easy to find door sweep and foam weather stripping I found at RONA. Makes a huge difference indeed along with the solid core door.

I noticed in Burlington that on Walkers Line right by Mainway there is a building supply store that sells Green Glue etc.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:16 am 
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Location: Belleville, ON, CA
Wow, lot's of terrific information here - my thanks to all of the contributors!

I usually just wait until she goes out. :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:22 pm 
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Location: Niagara Region, ON, CA
Does anyone know of a good lighting consultant/installer in the Niagara area...I will be needing some recessed lighting,preferably led,but not sure what to buy....something that can be used in an insulated area(ceiling)....possibly dimmable,if they are quiet and buzz free. Thanks,Huck


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:14 pm 
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Huck wrote:
Does anyone know of a good lighting consultant/installer in the Niagara area...I will be needing some recessed lighting,preferably led,but not sure what to buy....something that can be used in an insulated area(ceiling)....possibly dimmable,if they are quiet and buzz free. Thanks,Huck


Do your homework here there is some really cool recessed lighting that has come out recently... Keep your lighting on a different circuit(s) as anything else and know that all dimmers are not alike and get the best quality that is designed for that specific lighting.... Cheap dimmers or wrong dimmers =noise


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:51 pm 
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Location: Niagara Region, ON, CA
ADCO wrote:
Huck wrote:
Does anyone know of a good lighting consultant/installer in the Niagara area...I will be needing some recessed lighting,preferably led,but not sure what to buy....something that can be used in an insulated area(ceiling)....possibly dimmable,if they are quiet and buzz free. Thanks,Huck


Do your homework here there is some really cool recessed lighting that has come out recently... Keep your lighting on a different circuit(s) as anything else and know that all dimmers are not alike and get the best quality that is designed for that specific lighting.... Cheap dimmers or wrong dimmers =noise

Thanks...but where do I find this cool recessed lighting?....all I see is the same old boring stuff from Home Depot or Lowe's...not much doing a Google search either??. Any linkies?Thanks,Huck


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