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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:36 pm 
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my HT rear speakers are wall mounted, due to space limitation I want to place them horizontally, i.e. tweeter and bass drives on same height level. my questions now is, should I place tweeters in center, bass outside, or in opposite way? in other words, should I place two rear speakers head to head, or foot to foot?

please advice, thanks in advance!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:59 am 
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I think you would get better imaging if the tweeters were on the outside, any speakers that are designed horizontal usually have the bass drivers on the inside and tweeters on the outside.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:36 am 
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Maggie 1.7's can be places with the tweeter on inside edges, or the outside edges. They say, and I agree, that the imaging is narrower with the tweeters on the inside, and wider on the outside edge. You may want to experiment, but I would try the tweeters on the outside first if you can.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:37 am 
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I would also think the rear surround stage would be wider or open up with the tweets to the outside.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:57 am 
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These are surrounds that you are talking about right.

I would put the tweeters to the outside.

In fact why not try both, and see what you like best.

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Ohms

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:13 pm 
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thanks guys. I will give a try to tweeters outside way at first..


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:04 pm 
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7.1 or 5.1? For 7, I'd try them in, 5 out.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:30 pm 
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kuchi wrote:
thanks guys. I will give a try to tweeters outside way at first..

Just wondering how you made out?

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Ohms

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:57 pm 
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AudiOhm wrote:
kuchi wrote:
thanks guys. I will give a try to tweeters outside way at first..

Just wondering how you made out?

Regards
Ohms



I mounted 2 rear surround speakers with tweeter on outside edge. I actually didn't try the inside way yet, but I am feeling like this tweeter outside way, because these two rear surround speakers are a little close, so I think it better to go with tweeters outside for wider sound image.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:26 am 
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Does not matter rear surround don't do much,there is no direct stereo imigeing only ambient rear sound,try speakers both ways if you want,but for music only 2ch.should be used unless pink Floyd or offer multichannel music is used.Live music is in front of you not behind,a properly treated room and vinyl with tubes in the chain is needed for music no exceptions!and NO DIGITAL! have fun.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 8:25 am 
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Hi,

Couple of things here for people who might be thinking of using horizontal bookshelf speakers as 'fronts' in 2.0, 2.1, 5.1, 5.2 etc. systems.

AR - Acoustic Research speakers of the 70's, like the AR3a and AR2ax, that were widely owned were actually designed to be laid horizontal on built-in bookshelves that were often featured on one living room wall in many homes. The idea, not always achieved, was to have them both at the same level, about ear height, maybe 6 feet apart, and toed in about 15 degrees, with the tweeters on the outside and angled inward to the sweet spot. KLH, Advent, Dynaco and many others followed with similar speaker designs, mostly using acoustic suspension principles but some using damped bass reflex designs. At the time there were famous promotional photos of artists like Miles Davis sitting at home and listening to his AR system within this sort of horizontal bookshelf configuration. Some manufacturers still refer to them as 'bookshelf' speakers even though the actual bookshelves to put them in are rarer, and others call them stand mounts.

Cheers,
David Neice

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:42 pm 
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Zipp wrote:
Does not matter rear surround don't do much,there is no direct stereo imigeing only ambient rear sound,try speakers both ways if you want,but for music only 2ch.should be used unless pink Floyd or offer multichannel music is used.Live music is in front of you not behind,a properly treated room and vinyl with tubes in the chain is needed for music no exceptions!and NO DIGITAL! have fun.


An all encompassing and somewhat less than accurate statement.
I would suggest that with some exceptions, Classical chamber music in an intimate setting, for instance, that the "live" in Live Music refers to the musicians and audience rather than the form of delivery which is often itself electronic in nature.
"Live" music is usually amplified and has passed through all manner of transducers, electronic and digital devices before the sound reaches your ears, there are also often peripheral (surround) speakers used in concert venues.

As for vinyl, the signal has to be processed electronically to cut the high frequencies and boost the bass frequencies which were manipulated during the disc manufacturing per the RIAA equalization compensation needed to limit the cutting lathe's lateral excursions creating a narrower groove for more disk content (sounds like a form of compression to me :D) and to prevent the stylus from distorting and damaging the groove.(so that's 2 signal processes directly altering the frequency so far, and one of them is in the first stage of the playback chain!)

I could go on, but I won't.

However I do think "Live music is in front of you not behind,a properly treated room and vinyl with tubes in the chain is needed for music no exceptions!and NO DIGITAL!" is rather conceited.

Personally I just love music, live, vinyl, digital or any other way we find to experience it. How it is reproduced is a matter of personal preference, there are no rules.

Regards

Mac.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:12 pm 
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buybye88 wrote:
Hi,

Couple of things here for people who might be thinking of using horizontal bookshelf speakers as 'fronts' in 2.0, 2.1, 5.1, 5.2 etc. systems.

AR - Acoustic Research speakers of the 70's, like the AR3a and AR2ax, that were widely owned were actually designed to be laid horizontal on built-in bookshelves that were often featured on one living room wall in many homes. The idea, not always achieved, was to have them both at the same level, about ear height, maybe 6 feet apart, and toed in about 15 degrees, with the tweeters on the outside and angled inward to the sweet spot. KLH, Advent, Dynaco and many others followed with similar speaker designs, mostly using acoustic suspension principles but some using damped bass reflex designs. At the time there were famous promotional photos of artists like Miles Davis sitting at home and listening to his AR system within this sort of horizontal bookshelf configuration. Some manufacturers still refer to them as 'bookshelf' speakers even though the actual bookshelves to put them in are rarer, and others call them stand mounts.

Cheers,
David Neice


Agree about the AR-2 and AR-3s often being used sideways on actual bookshelves, but then they were designed to be use close up to walls behind them. They sound like crap on stands. Standmounts on the other hand sound like crop on bookshelves because they were designed to bet a few feet from any room boundary. Hence bookshelf and standmount speakers are 2 completely different types of speakers and not interchangeable despite their similar size.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:47 pm 
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I have several sets of vintage speakers, and have often wondered about how I would place them on bookshelves. As an example, I have my Dynaco A25XLs on short stands standing vertical; and my JBL L100's on shorter floor stands both with tweeters at ear level. But, now I am faced with moving, and have an opportunity to place both sets on bookshelves in our new listening room. So, following the above discussions I now know that the tweeters should (most likely) be placed outboard of the woofers. What recommendations do you all make for placement - distance apart, height, "toe in", etc. Not HT but strictly two channel.

your advice is appreciated, and, hope this isn't hijacking the thread....


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:05 am 
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Hi,

OBI56 is right (as always), stand mounts and bookshelf speakers are different animals, with a few exceptions like the little PSB speaker. Back in the day of the AR series, there really were no specially designed stand-mount speakers, as we think of them today as mini-monitors on tall dedicated stands. Dedicated stands in those days were often used with studio monitor type speakers, like the Spendor BC1 or BC3 or the Rogers LS/6. These stands were about six inches high and raised the tweeter level and let air circulate under the cabinet.

If larger 'bookshelf' speakers like the AR's and Advents were not placed horizontally on bookshelves, they were often just dropped vertically on the floor, often with coasters on top, and frequently at crazy locations from a stereo point of view. It was for this reason that I started thinking, 'lots of people have heard sound coming from two speakers, but only some have heard the 'stereo effect.'. This went on for a long time.

Dynnaco's are good examples to play around with. Get them on the shelves, sideways, tweeters around ear listening level, or at chest level and on the outside, about six feet apart and toed in maybe 15 degrees towards the sweet listening spot. Try to keep the front edges of the speakers just a slight bit forward of the edge of the shelves, maybe a quarter inch. On the two tweeter sides stack some books to fill the shelving (on the sides, above, and below) so that tweeter splash is captured by the books. Fire it up and maybe start moving them around. You want to put the listening seat at eight to ten feet from the speakers and to be where the sound field image forms. To get that image firm you may need to slide things around;try the speakers closer together and further apart (moving a few inches at a time), change the height of the horizontal placement, change the toe-in angle, change the height of your ears so try to stand up and sit down, move the listening chair around, forward and back. Better?

A couple of quirks. Many of classic bookshelves were not normally made as mirror image pairs. Tweeters were often offset about 30 degrees to the right or left of the woofer. This means when you lay them down, one tweeter is going to be about five or six inches higher or lower than the other. Not much you can do about it. Finally, I always isolate speakers from passing on any possible extraneous cabinet vibrations, and in this case they would be vibrations that would go into the bookshelf cabinet. Buy a few feet or even a roll of that kitchen shelving rubberized stuff with the tiny holes in it and lay it under the speakers. Experiment!

Cheers,
David Neice

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