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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:32 pm 
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miss you kuka


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:42 pm 
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kukakunga wrote:
Funny thing with design and engineering, things don't usually just happen perfectly the first time around. It's a process, not an event, give them a chance to sort through things, there are always unforeseen issues and yes, maybe even miscalculations. Jumping to conclusions at this point only shows one's inexperience with this type of thing. BTW, is it reasonable to expect that an audio "gear" designer should automatically be an acoustic engineer? It always amazes me the Demi-God status audiophiles give to those who design gear. They are just people ya know.

I didn't say he ought to be an acoustic engineer. If you watched the video, he has a specialist in this area who's doing the work for him. BTW I'm an architect and work with all kinds of engineers and understand it is a 'process,' until your a$$ is on the line upon a signature date..
My problem with this is that the failure is currently determining the outcomes of the latest products that people are spending millions on.
Maybe I'm just bitter 'cause the ps products I've had were all mediocre at best. But maybe I'm right!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:24 am 
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kukakunga wrote:
Funny thing with design and engineering, things don't usually just happen perfectly the first time around. It's a process, not an event, give them a chance to sort through things, there are always unforeseen issues and yes, maybe even miscalculations. Jumping to conclusions at this point only shows one's inexperience with this type of thing. BTW, is it reasonable to expect that an audio "gear" designer should automatically be an acoustic engineer? It always amazes me the Demi-God status audiophiles give to those who design gear. They are just people ya know.


Of course your right. But don't leave the testing until the very last!

If you watch the videos the part that strikes me is his impatients to get the speakers into the room. I mean from the very first video he projects it. If I have learned anything from DIY it's patients is king.

So in his headlong effort to plunk down in a chair and hear the speakers he carpets the floor, muds and paints the walls, textures the ceiling, puts his CD's on the shelf, hooks up all the gear and then measures. He could have left the walls unfinished brought in the bass columns with the old carpet and left the resonators with options. Then see if their effect warrants the space and effort with measuring. If not then gut them and go to plan B which he did not have and realized too late ( A good plan B requires nearly as much time and thought as plan A, but is worth the effort and every second of time) In other words "Oh, My".

BTW the speakers are far to big for the room to simply employ passive tuning.

Marc mc

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:49 am 
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I'll buy that Marc, it is entirely possible that the guy doing the acoustics needed things not afforded him by McGowan having different priorities. keshiri, you also have good points, one must meet a client's expectations or reputations are on the line. We don't know the relationships and expectations involved here, seems pretty friendly on camera, maybe off cemera that dude is getting drilled by McGowan, then again....maybe he took a bigger bite than he could chew and gave one of HIS employees the chance to take this on. Either way, it will be interesting to see how they figure it out, it may have been something they solved 1/2 a day later....or maybe a much bigger headache. I like that they are showing us the challenges instead of editing the "work" out.


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Lol... :twisted:


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:44 am 
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kukakunga wrote:
We don't know the relationships and expectations involved here, seems pretty friendly on camera, maybe off cemera that dude is getting drilled by McGowan, then again....maybe he took a bigger bite than he could chew and gave one of HIS employees the chance to take this on. :


A good friend of mine was doing an insane reno on a guys house. This guy was very rich but rather inept. My buddy calls me and asks if I will do the HT set for the guy? Not my thing but I did my buddies and he told him what i do and the guy wanted me and paid a lot to have me do it. Now while the guy left me alone the entire time he and his wife were constantly meddling with the Reno side of things. My friend is a genious at this stuff but they felt they knew more. And by the silence of the big guy at the end of the video it's clear where his paycheck comes from and who was really in charge all along.

I only mention this because the guy in the video has the exact same air, mannerisms and speech as the guy we did the work for. But as anyone who has been around for a while must admit this guy is simply following old paths he has heard from others it's not his own. and it didn't work.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:07 pm 
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marc mc wrote:
kukakunga wrote:
I only mention this because the guy in the video has the exact same air, mannerisms and speech as the guy we did the work for. But as anyone who has been around for a while must admit this guy is simply following old paths he has heard from others it's not his own. and it didn't work.


I am not sure I get this. I assume you are referring to Paul McGowan. I own a few PS Audio products, but none of the expensive ones. Having said that, I have supreme respect for Mr McGowan on a number of fronts:

o he appears to be still making money in high end audio with US based manufacturing.
o his company has fully embraced digital playback and is one of the few leading the charge to make it consumable and sound good.
o he just seems to be a guy who enjoys life and music. I subscribe to his newsletter and think it is a great read. Even if you are not into PS Audio products it is a good read. You can't fake enthusiasm IMHO (not long term anyway).

I think the videos are great. As someone who has spent a few hours with the IRS Vs, I think he has done a great thing here. You need to hear them to appreciate how their massive size simply disappears. For the poster who said he seemed in a rush to get them in the room, who wouldn't be! Besides, apparently they sat in the warehouse for months til things were ready.

I wish people into audio would perhaps lose the hyper criticism, and just enjoy the music. High end audio is pretty much dead and Mr McGowan is one of the few still keeping it going. I thought his series was super helpful. As a DIYer, I love seeing how people put together their rooms.

If you want you can always post to his forums on your critiques. He is very good at answering folks.
http://www.psaudio.com/forum/

If I lived in the Boulder area, I would love to work on his digital products.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:07 pm 
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I thought it was refreshing to see that mistakes do happen even to the pro's.

Now if this was Real Traps, or GIK acoustics making an error like this in a video I would be worried.
THis just goes to show you that depiste all your expertise and planning sh!t still happens.

And patient? The guy had a pair or IRS in storage for months. He has more patience than I ever could. Its not like you could just hook those up run some sweeps and put them back into the boxes until your finished. Those took 4 big guys and a forklift just to get them into the room!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:12 pm 
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mdl_tor wrote:
marc mc wrote:
kukakunga wrote:
I only mention this because the guy in the video has the exact same air, mannerisms and speech as the guy we did the work for. But as anyone who has been around for a while must admit this guy is simply following old paths he has heard from others it's not his own. and it didn't work.


I am not sure I get this. I assume you are referring to Paul McGowan. I own a few PS Audio products, but none of the expensive ones. Having said that, I have supreme respect for Mr McGowan on a number of fronts:

o he appears to be still making money in high end audio with US based manufacturing.
o his company has fully embraced digital playback and is one of the few leading the charge to make it consumable and sound good.
o he just seems to be a guy who enjoys life and music. I subscribe to his newsletter and think it is a great read. Even if you are not into PS Audio products it is a good read. You can't fake enthusiasm IMHO (not long term anyway).

I think the videos are great. As someone who has spent a few hours with the IRS Vs, I think he has done a great thing here. You need to hear them to appreciate how their massive size simply disappears. For the poster who said he seemed in a rush to get them in the room, who wouldn't be! Besides, apparently they sat in the warehouse for months til things were ready.

I wish people into audio would perhaps lose the hyper criticism, and just enjoy the music. High end audio is pretty much dead and Mr McGowan is one of the few still keeping it going. I thought his series was super helpful. As a DIYer, I love seeing how people put together their rooms.

If you want you can always post to his forums on your critiques. He is very good at answering folks.
http://www.psaudio.com/forum/

If I lived in the Boulder area, I would love to work on his digital products.


All valid points. But none of your points have anything to do with the results of his room.

The problem with his method was the "fixed" aspect of it. What he did cannot be modified at this point. Its the old measure twice and cut once concept.

marc mc

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:43 pm 
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Bass traps work okay at 100Hz and above but below 100 they have to be so large and placed in the right spot and or be very rigid that there is realistically very little chance they're going to fix those modes in that small room. As well, they seemed to not take into account the placement of those giant bass towers which will excite a whole bunch of modes independently based on their X, Y an Z axes. If they wanted to save themselves a whole lot of trouble they would have kept the maggies and used one or 2 subwoofers with electronic EQ on the subs only. It would have cost far far less and sounded way way better. The pink noise results they had were also terrible above 100Hz that they could have chosen a good $1000 bookshelf and achieved flatter response in the room than those speakers. Were they broken?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:28 pm 
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marc mc wrote:
All valid points. But none of your points have anything to do with the results of his room.

The problem with his method was the "fixed" aspect of it. What he did cannot be modified at this point. Its the old measure twice and cut once concept.


I am not sure I agree (and I try not to be an internet d*ck who can never admit they are wrong :-).

In my opinion the more knowledgeable someone is, the more willing they are to admit what they don't know. They knew they had an issue, they made provisions for tuning it (i.e. it was designed to be a flexible solution), and they are willing to share their experience. What they have done can absolutely be modified (even if it means ripping out drywall). I also think if they only have the single room issue, they are better off than 90% of folks. I am still surprised by the number of folks who take audio seriously and have never measured their room response.

I look forward to how the story ends. I think if you want to fault him on anything, criticize his trim work. :-)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:58 pm 
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marc mc wrote:

All valid points. But none of your points have anything to do with the results of his room.

The problem with his method was the "fixed" aspect of it. What he did cannot be modified at this point. Its the old measure twice and cut once concept.

marc mc

He is not finished. And he can still alter the stuffing and the "port" holes, or even plug them completly. Hell he can still tear them down and redo. Let this play out before coming to conclusions.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:13 pm 
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Jared Rachwalski wrote:
marc mc wrote:

All valid points. But none of your points have anything to do with the results of his room.

The problem with his method was the "fixed" aspect of it. What he did cannot be modified at this point. Its the old measure twice and cut once concept.

marc mc

He is not finished. And he can still alter the stuffing and the "port" holes, or even plug them completly. Hell he can still tear them down and redo. Let this play out before coming to conclusions.


If this guy was not a big shot and instead had average speakers he would be eaten alive for these videos.

IMO these videos are the equivalent of a guy talking about his boat design for an hour only to have it sink from the boat launch straight to the bottom. Can the boat be raised up and redesigned? Sure. And I pointed out that this will be far harder to do now because he painted the boat, mounted the motor, loaded all the gear and a cooler full of drinks before he found out if it would float.

Marc mc

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:45 am 
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^
What?
. This is nothing like sinking a boat on the first try. If anything this is more like a guy who builds boat motors building a boat with a special hull that planes quicker, then after the first test run finding out it was no better than the standard design.

You are talking like he is done. I never once heard him say
"Done! Now its perfect"

Did you?

Have you ever built some speakers and then were not pleased with the outcome after you heard them?

And frankly He is hardly a "big shot".
Maybe if this was Toole on the video.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:14 am 
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If at first you don't succeed, try try try again and on the video he does look like a man that will try again, like Jared say's so well GIVE THE GUY A CHANCE he is not a professional.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:37 am 
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From what I can understand from reading up on the resonators is that they work when air is passed over the holes. To place them in a corner would not allow this efficiently. IMHO :)

Perhaps installing them into the side walls and lowering the holes would be more effective. I am surprised that they did not make a mok up in a different testing area before building the whole room complete and then showing the video of the unsuccessful attempt.

Also, I am taken back by the lack of sound absorption on the ceiling and side walls. I did notice the stand alone resonators in the back of the room. These types of resonators are tunes for specific frequencies and not general absorption.

Just saying :shock:

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