Canuck Audio Mart Hifi and Audio ForumCanuck Audio Mart Hifi and Audio Forum
It is currently Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:34 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:50 pm 
Offline
Premium User
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:08 pm
Posts: 18449
Location: Montreal, QC, CA
Just to expand on Che Cavallos assertion that CD inputs are not the same voltage sensitivity as the older Aux inputs, he is correct. The average output of a tuner, tape or other Aux level device used to be in the order of 250mV. Very early CD players were 500mV but were quickly standardized to a 1 to 2V level, so at least a 3dB to 6dB attenuator, and in some cases, a 12dB attenuator may even be needed to match the levels of older Aux levels on older vintage amplifiers/receivers from the 70s and earlier to avoid overloading them.

Been there, done that.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:19 pm
Posts: 343
Location: Eastern Passage, NS, CA
Other have already commented on you using these inputs, Tuner, and tape inputs. They have the same functions as the aux inputs.

Furthermore, lots of vintage integrated, or receivers for that matter, although having two phono inputs, only have one internal phono pre. Some will have two phonos pre, but not many of them. Converting one phono input will not do much, but defeat your only phono pre. I might be wrong on this, so somebody with more knowledge might expand on that.

_________________
A force de contempler la mer, on fini un jour par la prendre.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:41 am
Posts: 7601
Location: Burlington, ON, CA
moinau wrote:
Other have already commented on you using these inputs, Tuner, and tape inputs. They have the same functions as the aux inputs.

Furthermore, lots of vintage integrated, or receivers for that matter, although having two phono inputs, only have one internal phono pre. Some will have two phonos pre, but not many of them. Converting one phono input will not do much, but defeat your only phono pre. I might be wrong on this, so somebody with more knowledge might expand on that.


Sure, the attenuator is in-line from the source before the rca jacks. What would it do to the phono stage overall inside?

Most, if not all, old receivers have tape in/out so I'm guessing the OP is overlooking that completely. He doesn't say wo you have to imagine how many different inputs he really needs.

_________________
"I'm not Inspector Gadget!"


Last edited by Che Cavolo on Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:07 pm 
Offline
Premium User
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:08 pm
Posts: 18449
Location: Montreal, QC, CA
moinau wrote:
Other have already commented on you using these inputs, Tuner, and tape inputs. They have the same functions as the aux inputs.

Furthermore, lots of vintage integrated, or receivers for that matter, although having two phono inputs, only have one internal phono pre. Some will have two phonos pre, but not many of them. Converting one phono input will not do much, but defeat your only phono pre. I might be wrong on this, so somebody with more knowledge might expand on that.


You are partially correct moineau. Multiple Phono inputs (usually MM compatible) will usually have a switch on the front panel to switch between them, effectively isolating them from each other. Some rare amps actually have 2 separate phono inputs. The bigger problem is the RIAA equalization that is applied to MM inputs (20dB boost at bass frequencies sloping to a 20dB cut at high frequencies).

Attachment:
615px-RIAA-EQ-Curve_rec_play.svg.png
615px-RIAA-EQ-Curve_rec_play.svg.png [ 16.45 KiB | Viewed 253 times ]


Many other amps/receivers however have 2 different types of Phono inputs; MM and MC which can differ in gain by 20 or so dB.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:19 pm
Posts: 343
Location: Eastern Passage, NS, CA
That is what I've on my my SA-8800, two phono inputs (MM) two tape, one tuner, and one aux.
I've one TT to the phono input, the other TT to a stand alone phono pre connected to the aux input, a tune to to the tuner input, and finally, a Pioneer Elite DV-58av to one of the tape input.

One thing I didn't not understand properly is, a modern CDP or DVD/CDP not being compatible with a vintage amp. Mine is.
Can somebody expand on this...

-- 12 Jun 2017 01:32 --

OBI56 wrote:
moinau wrote:
Other have already commented on you using these inputs, Tuner, and tape inputs. They have the same functions as the aux inputs.

Furthermore, lots of vintage integrated, or receivers for that matter, although having two phono inputs, only have one internal phono pre. Some will have two phonos pre, but not many of them. Converting one phono input will not do much, but defeat your only phono pre. I might be wrong on this, so somebody with more knowledge might expand on that.


You are partially correct moineau. Multiple Phono inputs (usually MM compatible) will usually have a switch on the front panel to switch between them, effectively isolating them from each other. Some rare amps actually have 2 separate phono inputs. The bigger problem is the RIAA equalization that is applied to MM inputs (20dB boost at bass frequencies sloping to a 20dB cut at high frequencies).

Attachment:
615px-RIAA-EQ-Curve_rec_play.svg.png


Many other amps/receivers however have 2 different types of Phono inputs; MM and MC which can differ in gain by 20 or so dB.


Thanks for the clarification.

_________________
A force de contempler la mer, on fini un jour par la prendre.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:45 pm 
Offline
Premium User
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:08 pm
Posts: 18449
Location: Montreal, QC, CA
Simple one moineau. Your Pioneer Elite DV-58av has a nominal 200mV output, just like the older vintage standard of around 250mV. The more modern PD-75, for example, has a 2V nominal output as do most other modern CDPs like the NADs, or 10dB more than your DV-58av.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:50 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:19 pm
Posts: 343
Location: Eastern Passage, NS, CA
OBI56 wrote:
Simple one moineau. Your Pioneer Elite DV-58av has a nominal 200mV output, just like the older vintage standard of around 250mV. The more modern PD-75, for example, has a 2V nominal output as do most other modern CDPs like the NADs, or 10dB more than your DV-58av.


OK, now I get it, thanks OBI
Goes to show that modern equipment of only 11 years old, has been outdated since a very long time, probably 6 months after inception.

(Output level . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . During audio output
200 mVrms (1 kHz, –20 dB)

_________________
A force de contempler la mer, on fini un jour par la prendre.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:14 am 
Offline
Premium User
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:08 pm
Posts: 18449
Location: Montreal, QC, CA
moinau wrote:
OBI56 wrote:
Simple one moineau. Your Pioneer Elite DV-58av has a nominal 200mV output, just like the older vintage standard of around 250mV. The more modern PD-75, for example, has a 2V nominal output as do most other modern CDPs like the NADs, or 10dB more than your DV-58av.


OK, now I get it, thanks OBI
Goes to show that modern equipment of only 11 years old, has been outdated since a very long time, probably 6 months after inception.

(Output level . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . During audio output
200 mVrms (1 kHz, –20 dB)


Its a bit more involved than that moineau. The DV-58av is a combination DVD and CD player versus the PD-75 being a dedicated CD player. They conform (mostly) to different standards when it comes to nominal output. CDPs in general tend to have MUCH higher outputs than other components like tuners, tape decks, phono preamps, etc ... Why this is probably dates back to the marketing hype about the loudness wars that were instituted back in the day when manufacturers wanted to make CDs sound louder (thus better) than other sources in order to boost CD player and CD sales. They went a bit overboard with a 2V nominal spec IMO.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 23, 2016 1:19 pm
Posts: 175
Location: Mississauga, ON, CA
OBI56 wrote:
Just to expand on Che Cavallos assertion that CD inputs are not the same voltage sensitivity as the older Aux inputs, he is correct. The average output of a tuner, tape or other Aux level device used to be in the order of 250mV. Very early CD players were 500mV but were quickly standardized to a 1 to 2V level, so at least a 3dB to 6dB attenuator, and in some cases, a 12dB attenuator may even be needed to match the levels of older Aux levels on older vintage amplifiers/receivers from the 70s and earlier to avoid overloading them.

Been there, done that.


Thx OB, I was not aware of that. All the gear I owned had CD input specs semi standarized (200-250 mV) same as Tuner and Tape.
I learn something every day.

One more point to the original poster. If your amp (or receiver) is not quite "vintage" (ppl tend to use the term loosely) and is pre HDMI, most likely it has multi/ch inputs = direct access to your power amps WITH volume control function working, tone controls usually disabled.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:27 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:19 pm
Posts: 343
Location: Eastern Passage, NS, CA
OBI56 wrote:
moinau wrote:
OBI56 wrote:
Simple one moineau. Your Pioneer Elite DV-58av has a nominal 200mV output, just like the older vintage standard of around 250mV. The more modern PD-75, for example, has a 2V nominal output as do most other modern CDPs like the NADs, or 10dB more than your DV-58av.


OK, now I get it, thanks OBI
Goes to show that modern equipment of only 11 years old, has been outdated since a very long time, probably 6 months after inception.

(Output level . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . During audio output
200 mVrms (1 kHz, –20 dB)


Its a bit more involved than that moineau. The DV-58av is a combination DVD and CD player versus the PD-75 being a dedicated CD player. They conform (mostly) to different standards when it comes to nominal output. CDPs in general tend to have MUCH higher outputs than other components like tuners, tape decks, phono preamps, etc ... Why this is probably dates back to the marketing hype about the loudness wars that were instituted back in the day when manufacturers wanted to make CDs sound louder (thus better) than other sources in order to boost CD player and CD sales. They went a bit overboard with a 2V nominal spec IMO.


Thanks again; good point, was not aware of the difference between dedicated CD versus DVD/CD, difference being more voltage in a dedicated CD player.
Since I'm mostly in turntables playing format, I never paid attention to CD players, nor did I ever own one to start with. Anyway, good to know if I ever decide to own one.

_________________
A force de contempler la mer, on fini un jour par la prendre.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group