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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:59 am 
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Bandy wrote:
MHoyle wrote:
Bandy wrote:
Welcome full room of electricians, the last people on the planet I'd expect to believe in brading or twisting speaker wires. AND none is asking about the length and gage. Have a close friend who is Master electrician as well. Told him to put decent (at least 12 gage) wire to hook up his amp (1.6kW), he said no the 18 gage is fine. After quick calc in my head, told him, about 30 Amps at full output!
He upgraded the cables quickly. No, he did not twist them or braided them. He used the knowledge from his field of expertise. Ohms law applies to high end audio like anywhere else, IMHO;-)

I think we were talking about speaker cable not power cords. The braiding is for dealing with inductance and capacitance issues affecting frequency response though for shorter lengths this isn't overly critical - doesn't cost any more to braid so why not? Plus braiding bundles of smaller gauge wires results in lower resistance over all , not a bad thing either but not so critical as in power cords feeding power to large power amps - of course plugged into dedicated circuits using decent size conductors backed by the appropriate breakers. No snake oil here, just common sense .


I WAS talking about speaker wire NOT power cords. The braiding for dealing with inductance and capacitance is questionable at best.
Some high-end cable manufacturers do it some not. Sonic results are not conclusive. Further more, braiding requires longer cable (straight cable is shorter than braided) = higher resistance.

No need to shout. You said after you told him the current draw of the amp , and I quote , 'He upgraded the cables quickly. No, he did not twist them or braided (sic) them.' which implies quite explicitly braiding the power cables though if you take apart a power cord with an internal ground they are twisted . Cheers.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:29 am 
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[/quote]

I WAS talking about speaker wire NOT power cords. The braiding for dealing with inductance and capacitance is questionable at best.
Some high-end cable manufacturers do it some not. Sonic results are not conclusive. Further more, braiding requires longer cable (straight cable is shorter than braided) = higher resistance.[/quote]
No need to shout. You said after you told him the current draw of the amp , and I quote , 'He upgraded the cables quickly. No, he did not twist them or braided (sic) them.' which implies quite explicitly braiding the power cables though if you take apart a power cord with an internal ground they are twisted . Cheers.[/quote]

I was talking about current output of the amp not current draw of the amp. Perhaps I should have been more clear. My bad. I should have said "to hook up his amp (1.6kW ) TO THE SPEAKERS." Not shouting, just trying to illustrate the misunderstanding. Cheers!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:58 am 
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Brandy said -- He used the knowledge from his field of expertise. Ohms law applies to high end audio like anywhere else, IMHO;-)No snake oil here, just common sense. - WOW

hopefully, we can spread this sentiment to the rest of CAM membership - that believes in Bybee Quantum Purifiers and justifies $2500.00 speakers cables.

good listening


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:56 am 
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Bandy wrote:


I WAS talking about speaker wire NOT power cords. The braiding for dealing with inductance and capacitance is questionable at best.
Some high-end cable manufacturers do it some not. Sonic results are not conclusive. Further more, braiding requires longer cable (straight cable is shorter than braided) = higher resistance.[/quote]
No need to shout. You said after you told him the current draw of the amp , and I quote , 'He upgraded the cables quickly. No, he did not twist them or braided (sic) them.' which implies quite explicitly braiding the power cables though if you take apart a power cord with an internal ground they are twisted . Cheers.[/quote]

I was talking about current output of the amp not current draw of the amp. Perhaps I should have been more clear. My bad. I should have said "to hook up his amp (1.6kW ) TO THE SPEAKERS." Not shouting, just trying to illustrate the misunderstanding. Cheers![/quote]

I see. current draw does mean the current required by the amp to supply its specified maximum output so I thought you were talking about the power cord. I think there's not many home oriented amps that require 30 amp at 115 volts (none I can think of anyways) since u ground receptacles found in homes are normally rated 15 amps at 115 volts. There are receptacles rated at 20 amps that can accommodate u ground plugs but I would use 12 gauge wire to feed those plugs. Higher than 20 amps and you're getting into various receptacles normally used for machinery and commercial applications which for obvious reason aren't compatible with NEMA 5-15r or NEMA 5-20r plugs. I think we have to take all those manufacturers claims of super high o/p current supplying ability with a grain of salt because the maximum claims are made for very short durations (limited by the power supply capacitance) and usually not even for both channels simultaneously plus the voltage o/p at the speaker terminals is I quite a bit lower than supply voltage ( I believe power supply rail voltage in most amps is in the 50 to 80 volt range and actual o/p voltage would depend on the required o/p determined by the user adjusted volume) .In the original post he said his amp could supply 1.6 kilowatts. I don't know of any home speaker system that could handle that kind of power for more than a few milliseconds. He didn't specify the amp but I suspect its a large class A amp that can double down all the way to 1 ohm and at that impedance could supply 1600 watts for a short time. In the real world the average watts supplied may be more in the 10 to 50 watt continuous range which would result in very loud levels indeed for the vast majority of speakers.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:46 pm 
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MHoyle wrote:
Bandy wrote:


I WAS talking about speaker wire NOT power cords. The braiding for dealing with inductance and capacitance is questionable at best.
Some high-end cable manufacturers do it some not. Sonic results are not conclusive. Further more, braiding requires longer cable (straight cable is shorter than braided) = higher resistance.

No need to shout. You said after you told him the current draw of the amp , and I quote , 'He upgraded the cables quickly. No, he did not twist them or braided (sic) them.' which implies quite explicitly braiding the power cables though if you take apart a power cord with an internal ground they are twisted . Cheers.[/quote]

I was talking about current output of the amp not current draw of the amp. Perhaps I should have been more clear. My bad. I should have said "to hook up his amp (1.6kW ) TO THE SPEAKERS." Not shouting, just trying to illustrate the misunderstanding. Cheers![/quote]

I see. current draw does mean the current required by the amp to supply its specified maximum output so I thought you were talking about the power cord. I think there's not many home oriented amps that require 30 amp at 115 volts (none I can think of anyways) since u ground receptacles found in homes are normally rated 15 amps at 115 volts. There are receptacles rated at 20 amps that can accommodate u ground plugs but I would use 12 gauge wire to feed those plugs. Higher than 20 amps and you're getting into various receptacles normally used for machinery and commercial applications which for obvious reason aren't compatible with NEMA 5-15r or NEMA 5-20r plugs. I think we have to take all those manufacturers claims of super high o/p current supplying ability with a grain of salt because the maximum claims are made for very short durations (limited by the power supply capacitance) and usually not even for both channels simultaneously plus the voltage o/p at the speaker terminals is I quite a bit lower than supply voltage ( I believe power supply rail voltage in most amps is in the 50 to 80 volt range and actual o/p voltage would depend on the required o/p determined by the user adjusted volume) .In the original post he said his amp could supply 1.6 kilowatts. I don't know of any home speaker system that could handle that kind of power for more than a few milliseconds. He didn't specify the amp but I suspect its a large class A amp that can double down all the way to 1 ohm and at that impedance could supply 1600 watts for a short time. In the real world the average watts supplied may be more in the 10 to 50 watt continuous range which would result in very loud levels indeed for the vast majority of speakers.[/quote]

Your observations r right on the money, the amp is indeed pro amp, Crown 1610, 800+ Continuous watts/ch, both channels driven into 4 ohm, stable down to 2 ohm. Came from IMAX theatre where it run as sub amp of one channel of IMAX tri-amped setup. His speakers r Magnepan MG3a's, low sensitivity, low impedance (below 3 ohms at some frequencies) and power hungry. He likes to listen loud and his room is huge. As you said he will not be utilizing the whole power of the amp if he intends to keep his speakers intact. However subjectively, large Magnepans benefit greatly from the power reserve of this amp. The dynamics are greatly improved by having almost unlimited power at hand. By telling him slightly exaggerated 30 amp number (well 15 per channel) I was trying to demonstrate his need for better speaker cable than what he used with his old 90W AV receiver. Cheers, and thx for your input.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:06 pm 
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Now all is clear. Maggies do indeed enjoy and are capable of using lots of power within reason and larger cables would facilitate that especially for long runs. Interesting to note that the 1610 says on the back that it requires 10 amps at 120 v which translates to 1200 watts so not sure how they claim max o/p of 1600 watts unless they've figured out how to bypass the laws of conservation of energy! Obviously the amp can never exceed it's power input so even at the theoretical and never achievable 100 % efficiency it could only o/p 1200watts continuous. Real life figures assuming maybe 60 to 70 % eff (pretty good) it would struggle to deliver 900 watts continuous to both channels though I suppose short term 900 watts to one channel in which case 14 gauge wire would still be quite capable of transmitting that amount of power. I wonder how the Maggies sound being driven by a Crown Pro amplifier. Maybe one day I'll have access to one to try on some of my speakers. I do have a pro amp BGW 750 which does sound quite nice but it has a more traditional topology using mosfets.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:10 pm 
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BinkyTheCat wrote:


I made the ones at http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/Low-I ... er-Cables/ and they were excellent. I would recommend trying these.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:51 am 
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MHoyle wrote:

Now all is clear. Maggies do indeed enjoy and are capable of using lots of power within reason and larger cables would facilitate that especially for long runs. Interesting to note that the 1610 says on the back that it requires 10 amps at 120 v which translates to 1200 watts so not sure how they claim max o/p of 1600 watts unless they've figured out how to bypass the laws of conservation of energy!


The one I had, had sticker on the back: 11 Amps at 120V. Even w 11 Amps, the specs r "flaky". Claiming 850W at 1 khz, (based on that I'd estimate 750W 20Hz-20KHz) both channels driven at 0.1% THD, continuous for 5 min into 4 ohms. It just does not add up.

Obviously the amp can never exceed it's power input so even at the theoretical and never achievable 100 % efficiency it could only o/p 1200watts continuous.

Obviously. Unless it can generate energy, which would solve world's energy crisis :-)

Real life figures assuming maybe 60 to 70 % eff (pretty good) it would struggle to deliver 900 watts continuous to both channels though I suppose short term 900 watts to one channel in which case 14 gauge wire would still be quite capable of transmitting that amount of power. I wonder how the Maggies sound being driven by a Crown Pro amplifier. Maybe one day I'll have access to one to try on some of my speakers. I do have a pro amp BGW 750 which does sound quite nice but it has a more traditional topology using mosfets.

How does the Crown sound with Maggies? Well, the only reason why Mrs. (music lover and violin player) let me sell it, was the fan noise which was noticeable in our smallish living room during quieter passages. We re-listened to a lot of our music hearing notes and details we never heard before. Dynamics were greatly improved. Amp sounded effortless at any volume. Currently we run our MG1.6 with Sonics 800x, (which is basically Bryston 7B NRB converted to stereo) with excellent results. Mrs. thinks the Crown was slightly better, I like the Bryston more.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:24 am 
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Hi..i am a new user here. As per my knowledge Cat 5 wires are 24g. Doubling the number of wires subtracts 3 from the gauge number so 8 wires is 15 gauge, 16 is 12 etc. I'm with you on the 150$ wall plugs etc.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:12 am 
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Wow thanks for all the input folks! I had completely forgotten about this thought, and was just starting to dig into buying some interconnects... then it dawned on me that nobody with any skill should have to spend $400 on a set of interconnects.

Thanks for all the ideas and pointers. I'll be starting up my builds shortly, try to get some pics up for you guys when I'm done. I'll be doing 5 sets of banana jack speaker pairs and RCA interconnects to match. Sold my Parasound A23 a little while back and eagrely awaiting a Rotel RMB 1565 multi-channel to improve on my Denon X3300w.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:40 am 
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Attachment:
File comment: 6c14awg double braid
IMG_20180312_230321.jpg
IMG_20180312_230321.jpg [ 368.33 KiB | Viewed 666 times ]


After a few different ideas and the wife's input, we've given this a solid effort. Making our first set of 2x 6 foot cables made with braided high-strand 14awg (8 awg combined)

This is super time consuming and absolutely killed our finger tips keeping 6 conductors of 14 awg tight in a braid. would have used smaller gauge wire but I have a couple hundred feet of CL2 kicking around, and the capabilities of these fat beauties should be pretty substantial.

Next step will be throwing some pants and better connectors on it and finishing in a nice "desert denim" techflex.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:10 am 
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alladione wrote:
Brandy said -- He used the knowledge from his field of expertise. Ohms law applies to high end audio like anywhere else, IMHO;-)No snake oil here, just common sense. - WOW

hopefully, we can spread this sentiment to the rest of CAM membership - that believes in Bybee Quantum Purifiers and justifies $2500.00 speakers cables.

good listening


No - stop spreading the sentiment. That's the most irritating thing about cable skeptics - the evangelizing, the need to be heard, the desire to "educate". We can all come to our own conclusions, thank you very much.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:48 pm 
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BSavvy, thanks for your cable thread. I’ve made some “cheap” diy cables with the following results, using only my ears!

Cat 6 => 10 awg (7 strand plain copper) > 12 awg Loews speaker cable = Belden 15 awg flat pure av cable.

Cat 6 was good with Klipsch Heresy but not quite as good on Martin Logan Clarity speakers, maybe because I heard more mid and high range on the Klipsch and the ML’s are already excellent there. The 10 awg was better on the ML’s. I used the 12 awg to redo all cables inside 4 Klipsch Heresy (2 x 1980 and 2 x 1984).

Not sure if I will be using the Belden in under carpet HT application or bite the bullet and take down drywall and pull 10 or 12 awg.

Your braided cables look great, happy listening.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:07 pm 
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This is super time consuming and absolutely killed our finger tips keeping 6 conductors of 14 awg tight in a braid.

The research I did into braiding when I doing my own loom suggested that the braid should not be so tight since it stresses the metal. I'm not sure, but I believe it would increase C as well. Where did you find the suggestion that the braid should be tight?

Braiding seems like a lot of work, but I found that once a rhythm was established, the weave pattern becomes programmed into muscle memory and the whole process becomes therapeutic....I can see why some women enjoy knitting. And anyway, my loom involved only 4ft of 34ga Litz wire for a tonearm.... enough to be enjoyable without becoming arduous. :D

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:11 pm 
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Braided cables have an interesting sound but then again so do solid cables . I have homebuilt both . Be careful with solids as they can damage the connectors on your gear .To those who say they can not make much difference as they are connected to great lengths of other different geometries and sizes consider how a water filter hooked to the end of your water supply changes its properties .


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