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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:31 pm 
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Location: Hebron, CT, US
I bought a pair of B&W 805D monitors from a member who agreed to ship these to me. I was unwise to pay by simply transferring the payment through PayPal from my checking account. This left me with no recourse against the seller. Unfortunately, the seller failed to package the speakers properly and as a result the very delicate diamonds shattered inside the tweeter housing. These cost almost $2,200 USD or $2,800 CAD plus labor to replace. Seller should have separated the diamonds and placed them in an impact-resistant box. I had not owned these speakers before and did not know that these diamonds were so delicate. I thought that the speakers sounded OK, but they were unimpressive. Then I found the reason why as I removed the protective grill on the tweeters and found nothing but fragments. Up until then I had trusted the seller's integrity and knowledge. I was disappointed that the seller not only refused to allow me to return these speakers, but he claimed to have no responsibility for the damage caused by his failure to package the speakers properly. I found someone to replace the diamonds at a discount ($1,500 USD) because I am a loyal customer. I even offered to pay 1/2 the repair bill but the seller refused again, offering to give me $300 CAD (which was the same as refunding my shipping charge.) I was gracious enough to initially leave the seller positive feedback before I found out the reason for the disappointing sound of these speakers. I removed my feedback but now I cannot leave a warning for anyone who may have the misfortune of dealing with this seller, in the event that something goes wrong with their transaction :!: and they receive treatment such as I received. There should be a way to make a complaint within the Audio Mart for such poor seller behavior. I am not inclined to shop here again without such safeguards.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:47 pm 
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First thing first: Did you report the transaction to the Moderation team through the Report This Ad link in the original ad?

Second thing: did you not purchase shipping insurance on such a valuable and, apparently delicate, item?

I find it odd that the tweeters shattered during shipment, specially since they were originally shipped from England via truck, then container ship, by yet another truck when the arrived, then by another truck to the original dealership before being sold, transported again to the original buyer's, etc ... all apparently without damage.

By "simply transferring payment through PayPal" are you referring to a PayPal "Friend" Payment?

CAM Moderation Team


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:17 pm 
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Location: Vernon, BC, CA
If you didn't pay for shipping insurance I would place part of the blame on you...that's just plain foolish.

My 802 D2's came with the diamond tweeters placed in the speaker housing with no special safeguard, just some padding. I helped unpack 804 D2's and they also had no safeguard in place. I doubt they just shatter for no reason, clearly it was a handling issue.

I remember the ad you posted trying to sell them as "nearly pristine" recently. You can see in the pics there is something wrong with the tweeters. How did you not notice that immediately? http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/ ... condition/


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:56 pm 
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Location: Golden Triangle, ON, CA
James_W wrote:
If you didn't pay for shipping insurance I would place part of the blame on you. That's just plain foolish.

My 802 D2's came with the diamond tweeters placed in the speaker housing with no special safeguard, just some padding. I helped unpack 804 D2's and they also had no safeguard in place. I doubt they just shatter for no reason, clearly it was a handling issue.

I remember the ad you posted trying to sell them as "nearly pristine" recently. You can see in the pics there is something wrong with the tweeters. How did you not notice that immediately? http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/ ... condition/



Actually, that's not quite right. Shipping insurance, insures the SHIPPER as it is his property
not the RECIEVER. Only the SHIPPER can make a claim so in the real world the shipper
who will not insist on insuring his own property is the fool. Of course, one can always blame the guy
who didn't pack them, in the first place..... :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:11 pm 
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James_W wrote:
I remember the ad you posted trying to sell them as "nearly pristine" recently. You can see in the pics there is something wrong with the tweeters. How did you not notice that immediately?


And with that Million Dollar Question I predict the OP will disappear into the ether.

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/ ... condition/

Am I missing something here? Or have I had one too many Stella's this evening? James_W's discovery of the link above changes everything.

How's this for a revisionist scenario: The OP buys the speakers from a CAM member, thinks they sound OK but 'unimpressive' and sells them straight-away (as evidenced in the link) without noticing the tweeter damage. His buyer notices immediately and tells the OP that the speakers are damaged. Then of course the OP claims that the tweeter damage occurred when the original CAM seller shipped them to him, which may well have been the case. I'm not disputing that.

Plausible? Or are those Stella's fogging my mind?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:41 am 
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Location: Hebron, CT, US
Clearly, everyone has an opinion but I was hoping for a simple answer to my question, which is "Are there rules in place for merchandise damaged during shipment?" Would appreciate that answer. As to comments about "disappearing into the ether" I wonder if you are trying to be helpful or simply spouting off. I'm looking for help here.

As noted, shipping insurance doesn't help me, so that's one "opinion" that is better left unstated until you have the facts. Clearly, there are gaps in everyone's knowledge, starting with mine. I didn't know that the diamonds were so fragile, although that's what I learned from a forum member (who works in the audio industry) who pointed out to me that something looked wrong with my tweeters. He even took the time to give me a call and instructed me to remove the magnetic grills covering the diamonds to check them. That's when I discovered all the fragments inside. He told me about the extreme fragility of the diamonds, which I didn't know about. THAT'S WHEN I PULLED MY AD and tried to work something out with the seller. I heard the same thing from an audio dealer (another expert) regarding the need to protect the diamonds against impacts to the shipping box from normal handling. So, the styrofoam used by the seller to pack the speaker cabinets tightly was great for protecting the cabinets, but completely inadequate for the diamonds. I doubt that B&W uses styrofoam; I'm sure they use something that provides the impact protection that the tweeters require. Good to know.

So, THE FACTS are that I paid for shipping insurance that MIGHT cover the seller IF the carrier was willing to accept responsibility for the seller's innocent mistake of improperly protecting the delicate merchandise. Personally, I doubt that. The box wasn't even marked "fragile." Now THAT'S perhaps a good rule to have. I simply ask whether such a rule exists for sellers; that would be good to know. How about someone who actually knows the answer being helpful by giving a member in need some useful information, instead of posting opinions and speculating on my actions.

The other FACT already noted is that I tried to sell these. What would YOU do with a disappointing product that you bought? I also noted that these were ALMOST pristine - because the seller didn't mention the scratch on the side of one of the cabinets. I didn't complain about it to him because it was so minor (at least to me) but I DID mention it in my ad. "Actions speak louder than words."

"How did I NOT notice the problem with the tweeters?" Were you paying attention? BECAUSE I WAS UNINFORMED ABOUT THE DELICACY OF THE PRODUCT AND THE TWEETER DETAILS." Now it sticks out like a sore thumb to me. This is what's called "learning things the hard way." Has that ever happened to you? Let me kindly suggest to you that rubbing salt in someone's wounds is NOT helpful.

But, thanks everyone for sharing your opinions. I've been screwed over by a member, and instead of getting the facts I asked for, all you did was use the forum to posture as experts. Let me be more fair: you actually did help me to appreciate that one gentleman who pointed out the problem to me before I sold a defective product. He even guided me on how to get this repaired. Now THAT'S a helpful guy.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:41 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:25 pm
Posts: 696
Location: Hamilton, ON, CA
Shipping insurance protects you BOTH.

Yes, the shipper has to assist with the claim, but without - your in a pickle.

No, you don't want him to admit negligence in packing - CP will just reject any liability at that point.
If its agreed by both of you that the damage was neither your or his faulty - there would be no reason for him to not assist with the claim.

In future, keep in mind max amount to be insured can only be $1000 value...after that, risk is - well, increased.

Hopefully you can still sort it out, or...bite the bullet and start looking for replacements.

Sorry to hear about your hiccup.
BTW, why would you think that your seller would be unwilling to help out?


Last edited by JGP on Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:55 am 
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Location: Toronto, ON, CA
there is definitely something wrong with the tweeters (ones in question in black-the other for reference)

No disrespect intended but being uninformed is no excuse...especially when you're spending that kind of $$$$
You should have done you're homework on them. If people on this forum picked up on the anomaly of the tweeter just by doing a cursory search of them, you should have been way more knowledgeable of them since you wanted them.

However on the other hand, shame on the seller for passing off damaged goods...maybe there is some legal recourse but someone with more litigious experience should chime in.

Attachment:
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:25 am 
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Location: Manilla, ON, CA
Years ago I sold a turntable on Cam I purchased 2 years before on Cam. I drove it to the purchaser 2 hours to protect it from damage. After about a week the purchaser emailed me saying a small piece was broken off tonearm. When I checked original ad from which I purchased it sure enough it was missing from original seller. However after two years I couldn't go back on them. I drove back and refunded buyer and picked up turntable, ended up parting it out. If a great deal of time hasn't passed and original ad shows they were damaged prior to shipping, seller should take responsibility. If damaged in shipping with no insurance that would probably be rejected even if it was insured as a claim as Canada Post asks electronics to be shipped in original packaging or packaging approved by them which usually results in claim not being accepted unless package really damaged.

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Last edited by tubemannick on Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:36 am 
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Location: Winnipeg, MB, CA
the OP's ad also states that he didn't have the original boxes. If they were shipped to him that way then that could help explain why they were damaged in transport.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:40 am 
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Location: Guelph, ON, CA
You never posted a link to the original ad but I may have found it cached on Google. If the tweeters look fine in the original ad, it might help support a shipping damage claim.

I still don't understand why you would pay for shipping insurance and then not work with the seller to make a claim.

Also you never mentioned what carrier was used. I have purchased many items from the US without incident but there have also been many things (not audio specifically) that I wanted to buy but saw the dreaded CONUS ONLY letters in the ads.

If I was shipping to the US, I would make sure I had the original packaging and take it to a UPS store (or other carrier) and have them inspect my package and put their own packaging around it. Insure it for the value it sold for. And let them ship it with insurance, tracking and signature options. (Rather than take it to the post office and let Canada Post transfer it to USPS when it gets to the USA). One carrier is better than two. As a receiver I would insist on my choice of carrier, follow the above procedure and inspect an expensive item at the point of delivery, when I signed for it. If I was receiving something expensive I would actually take a video of me unpacking and report damage right away, lest someone think I may have dropped it myself taking it to the listening room in my excitement.


Although it is always nice to be able to fix what has already happened that is not always the case. When you buy used at a reduced price there are risks which can be minimized by the buyer and seller making the best choices and following the best procedures. The suggestions you receive here may not help for this transaction but may work next time. Local sale is best for delicate items and stuff without original packaging. Even new stuff at retail in its proper original packaging can get damaged by a carrier and/or customs.


Last edited by noway on Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:28 am 
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OK, let me have one more try at this before locking this one down, and Mambacfa, please answer MY questions as a member of the Moderation Team, as they were asked in the first post in response to yours.

OBI56 wrote:
First thing first: Did you report the transaction to the Moderation team through the Report This Ad link in the original ad?

Second thing: did you not purchase shipping insurance on such a valuable and, apparently delicate, item?

I find it odd that the tweeters shattered during shipment, specially since they were originally shipped from England via truck, then container ship, by yet another truck when the arrived, then by another truck to the original dealership before being sold, transported again to the original buyer's, etc ... all apparently without damage.

By "simply transferring payment through PayPal" are you referring to a PayPal "Friend" Payment?

CAM Moderation Team


CAM and the other 3 Audio Marts are Classified Ad services. Period. They are not auction sites or sales sites. All they do is to publish ads (like the newspaper classifieds) that you can look at and, if you are interested in an item, contact the seller. CAM has no part in any transaction aside from providing an initial contact; everything that happens after that, buying, selling, packing, shipping, insurance, etc ... is strictly between the buyer and the seller as clearly stated in the site's Terms Of Use policy:

Ads on Canuck Audio Mart ( are those posted by users, not by Canuck Audio Mart. We are not involved in the actual transaction between buyers and sellers, and as a result, Canuck Audio Mart has no control over the quality, safety or legality of the items advertised, the truth or accuracy of each classified ad and any representations made by the seller, the ability of sellers to sell the item and the ability of the buyers to buy the item. However, users and all transactions conducted on this site must comply with any applicable law and this Terms of Use Policy. We are not liable for any activity (including losses) incurred by a user while using this site, as well as any activity that occurs external to the Canuck Audio Mart site. We reserve the right to remove any ad or user that abuses his/her privileges and that does not abide by the law and this Policy.

The CAM Moderation Team regularly does help mediate disputes between buyers and sellers, provided that complaints are initiated through the Report This Ad link within the ad. From this point on, all communications between the 2 parties and the Moderation team are confidential. If no reasonable resolution can be mediated between the 2 parties after that point, then and only them can you initiate a Negative Feedback thread.

So please, follow the above procedures and we can take things from there. Until then, this thread will be locked.

CAM Moderation Team


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:19 am 
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Location: Cambridge, ON, CA
As a dealer I ship quite a few items a week. I've always insured every package. In my past life I worked in the transportation industry and had the privilege of seeing how packages are handled from pickup to delivery. Regardless of how well an item is packaged it will be subjected to violent handling at some point in transit. Here are some tips to help understand what shipping companies will do when you have a claim:

If it's not original packaging the chances of the claim being denied increase.

For the seller/shipper: Have pictures of the item being packaged. It helps during a claim. It also records you made a reasonable attempt at packaging the item(s) to acceptable shipping standards to ensure appropriate protection en route.

Unless there is visible damage on the surface the package, the shipping provider will most likely deny your claim.

If you receive a damaged package, either refuse it as damaged or report it to the seller and shipper immediately. Include photos.

I make shipping damage claims more than I would like to however the 2 shippers I use (Canada Post and UPS) have good teams working the claims process. I have found them to be thorough, fair and fast at processing claims.

One last thought, The UPS claims folks told me audio equipment is a nightmare for them. No matter how well items are packaged from manufacturers, things still get damaged regularly. Oh, and they laughed when I asked if putting a fragile sticker on the package helped out.....

Hope this helps!

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