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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:12 am 
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Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 8:52 am
Posts: 7
Location: toronto, ON, CA
Very recently I shipped a Pioneer receiver to a buyer in Alberta.
He had looked at its pictures,then sent payment and I then shipped it to him.
Which he received,then promptly sent me this:
I received the unit today, and I was impressed by your superior packing methods.
I unpacked slowly- and carefully anticipating the gem that we talked about and found something other. The unit was rated as an 8 by CAM standards.
There is a scrape in the center front glass-on the inside.
There is a deep gouge front and center on the top front aluminum trim- along side other lesser GOUGES.
There are "aberrations" -repair attempts, to the cabinet at top centre.
There is a chunk of (wooden) material missing from top rear right edge.
There is a deep impression along the right upper wooden edge.
All of these nicks and dents considered, I would rate the unit at 5.
I believe that you have had a misunderstanding of the CAM rating system and that WE need to come to terms on this point, and that you would not have ever misrepresent your item for sale, knowingly. I would not accuse you of intentionally misrepresenting the unit's condition, but I do think that you did not fully understand CAM's rating system and/or its importance to the process of negotiations on the CAM site.
I have detailed photos of todays immediate unpacking.
Contact me at once, please, to resolve.
The resolve is the buyer now demands some partial refund.
I feel this is an unfair business practice where some buyers are by nature looking to be compensated (that means bribe them so they won't leave the seller negative feedback) In closing it seems the seller is more at risk having to defend themselves even after the sale?
I replied:
I'm at a sad loss!
Most likely as you suggest, perhaps I don't fully grasp the rating system,yet with you now rating the unit only a 5, I ponder we both may have a misunderstanding of CAM's rating system!
However I'm one of those old school purists who actually listen to these vintage gems and judge them by sound performance, putting a greater emphasis on how they sound over minor cosmetic imperfections!
It seems to me that cutting through the layers,on my part I certainly meant well never thinking for a moment I was at all ever misrepresenting its appearance. I'm quite flabbergastedshocked that you choose to rate the receiver only 5 ?
I had acquired this very receiver from another CAM member,and I was thrilled with it!
My concern/question is; when buyers receive shipment it seems to me they can choose to say, its not what I thought it would be,or its now damaged due to shipping. Or they falsely state that the seller sent it knowingly damaged.
As aforementioned, I tend to be one of those old school purists who actually listen to these vintage 40-50 year old audio gems and judge them by sound performance, putting a greater emphasis on how they sound over minor cosmetic imperfections!
Perhaps sellers such as I should not even offer any rating,as it seems to me there are others who perceive this a means to after the fact ask the seller for compensation,further reducing the selling price.
I feel this is an unfair practice!
I have also purchased from out of province CAM members where on receiving my shipment I found the item(s) either not to be working,or not as the seller discribed. I always have accepted;if I looked at the photos provided and then sent means to purchase it, then when the seller sends it,I have always acknowledged "caveat emptor". I'm not excessively busy with trifles; anxious or particular about petty details/anal. Just call me old school honest!


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:41 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:54 am
Posts: 198
Location: Vancouver, BC, CA
Buyer returns to seller as they are not happy with the item. I think that the buyer should pay for the shipping as a goodwill gesture. Seller reposts, after carefully considering the CAM rating system.

IMHO


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:44 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:17 pm
Posts: 2306
Location: Winnipeg, MB, CA
Condition rating is very important to me. Regardless of how good it sounds, if it is marked beyond my liking i will pass on it. Also comes into play should I decide to sell later.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:47 am 
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Posts: 3090
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
I think the key points here are:

1. Did you rate it an 8 in your ad?
2. Is the purchaser's description of the cosmetic defects correct?

If the answer to both these questions is "yes," then I do think it's fair for the purchaser to receive a refund—after you have received the unit back from him, not before.

The rating system is primarily a rating system for cosmetics, as the definitions on Audiogon make clear. (All components for sale are assumed to be 100% functional unless stated otherwise.)

The purchaser seems to have taken care not to accuse you of any deliberate deception or manipulation. He expected excellent cosmetic condition and that's not what he received.

That'd be my take on it, anyway.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:49 am 
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Location: Burlington, ON, CA
range of ratings mentioned in your post. It's pretty clear what an 8 is, also a 5....

8/10: Very Good - Perfect front face, 1 minor flaw on top or side is acceptable.

This item has seen some use, but still appears perfect from the front. A perfect front face plate includes the front top edge. Be sure and check this edge since it is very easy to nick. On speakers, all four front edges should be inspected.
• Electronics may have 1 or 2 minor scratches (max 1/2" long, very thin) on the top plate or the sides of electronics, but again, the front must be perfect. There should be no signs of rack mounting. Chrome should have no pitting, but may have some discoloration in spots less than 1/4" diameter. Silk-screening has no separations, and the lettering shows no wear.
• Speakers may have minor discoloration along edges, but no scratches that show through the veneer, except for the bottom, which may show signs of stand mounting or floor scraping.
• Turntables covers may be slightly hazy from record sleeves being laid on them, but should not have any highly visible scratches anywhere. The headshell may have some scratches from cartridge mounting.


7/10: Good - 1 or 2 minor scratches, looks used but well maintained.
• Electronics should have no dents or bulges, but a few minor scratches. Perhaps a little wear on the knobs and switches, like the slightly darker or shiny coloration seen on volume knobs. If the item was rack mounted, plastic washers should have been used. Chrome may show slight pitting, but not enough to be visible without close inspection. Silk-screening on the glass is separating in at most one area of less than 1/2" diameter, and some parts of some letters may have worn off.
• Speakers may have loose fitting covers, or the cloth may have 3-5 minor pulls or 1 small hole less than 1/2" long. The cabinet may have one minor scratch that shows through the veneer, but no bigger than 1" long. The bottoms of speakers may show many small scratches or scrapes
• Turntable covers may be hazy, and the tonearm may show heavy scratches from repeated cartridge replacement.


6/10: Fair - 3 to 4 minor scratches, or 1 major scratch, appears used.
• Electronics may have one major scratch (over 2" long, deep enough to show metal) or a slight dent on one of the surfaces. The item must NOT have any major scratches on the front facia, but may have some nicks along the top front edge. Chrome may show obvious pitting, but should not have any flakes. Transformer covers may have some scratches, but cannot show any rust. Silk-screening is separating from the glass in more than one area, and some lettering is worn off, but the glass must have no cracks or chips.
• Speakers may have one major scratch that shows through the veneer, but no longer than 2", and no deeper than 1/16". Grill covers may have to be replaced to look fresh.
• Turntables may have scratch but not cracked dust covers, or pitting in the platter surface.


5/10: Average - Multiple scratches, including some on the front face.

This piece is visibly scratched and noticeably used, any major scratches on the front face qualify for a 5/10.
• Electronics may have several minor nicks or one major scratch on the front. Chrome is showing some pitting, maybe a flake or two has come off. Transformer covers show some rust, as do their mounting screws. Silcreening is separating from the glass in two or more areas, or the glass has one minor crack less than 1/2" long.
• Speakers may have 2 major scratches, or more than 5 minor scratches, grill covers may not stay on the speaker any more.
• Turntables may have cracked covers, headshell may have multiple scratches, and tonearms may have broken resting clip.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:58 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:58 pm
Posts: 279
Location: Vancouver Island, BC, CA
If the buyer's description is accurate you should send a refund or compensate him. Stating a piece is an 8/10 when it is actually a 5/10 is clearly misrepresenting the item.

One question, are the pictures in your ads the actual pictures of the unit you are selling?

If not, that is also misrepresenting the item. It is clearly the policy of CAM that photos need to be your own and should represent the unit unless stated in the ad.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:04 am 
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Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Had the seller included very detailed pics of the item in the CAM ad and included a rating, that would have helped. The pics would show any cosmetic damage and the buyer would see the condition prior to taking delivery. Sold as is based on those detailed pics.

Buyer either ships back or keeps as is. There is no bargaining or partial refunds since anyone could say that to get a lower price.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:11 am 
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Location: London, ON, CA
Let us see the pictures you posted.

This may help in our comments.

Regards
Ohms

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:01 am 
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Location: iii, ON, CA
Cosmetic condition on vintage pieces is quite often more important than running condition although nothing is unimportant. This sounds like a seller who has the misconception that vintage pieces just need to work well, which is not the case. You can fix the insides, you cannot fix the outsides. Many buyers of vintage pieces are just looking for top notch cosmetic units for a collection.A full refund would be in order once the buyer pays to ship it back, in my opinion.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:16 am 
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Location: Welland, ON, CA
Musicware4u wrote:
Had the seller included very detailed pics of the item in the CAM ad and included a rating, that would have helped. The pics would show any cosmetic damage and the buyer would see the condition prior to taking delivery. Sold as is based on those detailed pics.

Buyer either ships back or keeps as is. There is no bargaining or partial refunds since anyone could say that to get a lower price.


I am reasonably sure that the OP indicated that there were photos in the original ad and that the buyer saw them before committing to purchase. It puzzles me somewhat however that, if the photos were decent, recent and of the actual unit for sale how the buyer could not better determine the actual condition of the unit.

As already mentioned the rating system is predominantly for describing the physical or cosmetic condition of the item for sale, as all items should be automatically considered to be fully functional unless specifically described as otherwise. With this in mind, if the buyers description of the cosmetic condition of the receiver is accurate then the seller mis-represented the condition of the unit.

Your final point is an important one and I agree with it. No partial re-funds. I will either offer an unhappy buyer a full refund, upon safe return of the unit and at their expense, or to have the buyer keep the unit at the agreed upon and paid price. All of this is contingent on the item being described and rated accurately. If I rated an item incorrectly I would probably also offer to pay the return shipping or at least half of it.

I have had a couple of occasions where there was a bit of a disagreement between myself and a buyer on the posted rating of an item I sold where the buyer asked for a partial refund. When I replied with my standard return for full refund or nothing option they suddenly changed their tune and decided that the rating was actually, in retrospect, accurate and chose to keep the item. Therefore I basically always offer any buyer the option of a full refund if they are not happy with the items condition rating but I don't do the partial refund thing.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:20 am 
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I had a similiar experience with a buyer in Vancouver who questioned my CAM rating...I told him to ship the unit back and I would give him a full refund including his shipping expenses.

He was not willing to do that...insisting I give him a partial refund...I told him that wasn't even a consideration for me...either ship it back or keep it.

He kept it...which made me inclined to think that he was simply trying to "shake me down"...if you know what I mean.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 11:56 am 
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Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Ishis, sometimes shipping back at your own coin is simply too much, compared to the item's price. I bought a pair of speakers from UK via ebay a few years ago, they arrived with damaged corners and multiple scratches - the most horrible packing I have ever seen. Shipping back for those was close to $300. Add another $300 that I paid for shipping to Canada, that was like half the cost of those speakers.

And for the OP, if you disagree with proposed CAM rating, next time put N/A, but post detailed photos (I guess you did) and detailed description of every scratch and dent. As previously said, for vintage equipment, cosmetic appearance is as important or more important than functionality. If you did rate your item at 8, then you misrepresented it. Either request the item to be shipped back for full refund, or negotiate partial refund. That's what I would do.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:03 pm 
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Ishis wrote:
He kept it...which made me inclined to think that he was simply trying to "shake me down"...if you know what I mean.


Which is exactly what he was trying to do. If he wasn't dissatisfied enough to ship it back on your dime with a full refund, his motive was less than honorable.

And to the OP: any blems present on the faceplate or top front edge is a 7/10 or worse. End of story.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:10 pm 
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zhenya01 wrote:
Ishis, sometimes shipping back at your own coin is simply too much, compared to the item's price. I bought a pair of speakers from UK via ebay a few years ago, they arrived with damaged corners and multiple scratches - the most horrible packing I have ever seen. Shipping back for those was close to $300. Add another $300 that I paid for shipping to Canada, that was like half the cost of those speakers.

And for the OP, if you disagree with proposed CAM rating, next time put N/A, but post detailed photos (I guess you did) and detailed description of every scratch and dent. As previously said, for vintage equipment, cosmetic appearance is as important or more important than functionality. If you did rate your item at 8, then you misrepresented it. Either request the item to be shipped back for full refund, or negotiate partial refund. That's what I would do.


First of all...they must have been HUGE AND HEAVY speakers to cost $300.00 to have shipped from the UK...I have shipped Monitor Audio Bookshelf speakers to Amsterdam and it didn't cost a third of that...

...and...

...in my case...I was the seller...and more than willing to pay the shipping charges to have the unit sent back to me...I want all my clients to be happy and I also like to keep my Positive Feedback in the green...

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Last edited by Voodoo Funk on Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:19 pm 
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avigdor has 2 pioneer receivers listed, none in his sold section. one is marked 100% cosmetically superb. the other marked near new condition.

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