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Feedback for dealers regarding experience OUTSIDE of CAM must go in the Dealer Feedback Forum.



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:08 am 
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jferreir wrote:
Jimmi wrote:
Further to that it would also get rid of some of the gear flippers that more times than not are the source of negative sales IMO. They still have kijiiji etc to use...


This, I wholeheartedly endorse! In my view, flippers are parasitic to the CAM community. Their objective is to make money, often at the expense of an unsuspecting or naive buyer, which only harms the reputation of CAM, not to mention the hobby more generally. At the very least, I'd like to see these individuals pay higher costs similar to dealer subscriptions, and clearly identify themselves as high-volume sellers. Enforcement would be tricky, but surely something can be done. What do others think about this?


I don’t understand the hatred of gear "flippers" in my opinion they are no different than anyone else. I have purchased and sold gear to "flippers" in the past and have not had any issues. If I have something to sell I set an ask price but I also have in mind a minimum that I will take, if a "flipper" offers me a number that is in the zone I will often sell it, once I have made up my mind to sell something I usually want it gone ASAP. As for buying from a “flipper”, I don’t see how this differs from buying from anyone else, if they have it for sale and will accept the price I am willing to pay I will buy. I fail to see the distinction between “flipper” and regular buyer/seller, not much different than the local used audio dealer who takes your trade and gives you X then doubles it and sticks it on his for sale rack. I would like to see the statistics that show the “flippers” are the source of negative sales, they may be a source of low ball offers but that’s hardly a felony.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:12 am 
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Energyguy999 wrote:
Lastly, I too would like to know the selling price of some gear BUT I have no desire to publicize it! That would be a great mistake.


Sadly, the asking price can be removed before marking it sold.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:22 am 
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Erik, thanks I did not know this!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:36 am 
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Ensuring all information is available is NOT another rule.

Information benefits everyone and its the cornerstone of
good communication for both the experienced and those
less so.
People talk about rules and the reality is most don't know
or follow the ones already in place but yip and yap about
something that would supply information that not only
answer more possible questions pre contact with a seller.

It's funny that some say they don't want prices known
yet the forums are riddled with questions of how much
and so on. Sellers who use bluebook to guage their price
and buyers who use it as a tool as well through searching ads.

Information that would help mate sellers and
buyers more positively , help remove some of the flippers
and the negative sales due from them and provide a source
for answers that no longer need to be littering the forums
can't be a bad thing or been seen as a rule.
Information is a requirement of good and safe business.

@kvn63
Kevin , IMO and IME the gear flippers are often a source
of the negative experiences for sales , complaints in forums
and a catalist in the ongrowing negative atomosphere that
is getting worse. Read the forums , its all but impossible to
not see the negativity and how this is a rip off and that
and so on. Users who cheat other users for profit is a source
of negative for each and every unsuspecting buyer who realizes
to late. This is a community , in my view of community we don't
take advantage of others we help them and treat them fairly.
We don't contact members of the community and tell them
every sob story going and outright lie to obtain an item then
relist it for twice that a week after going on the forums and
using the forums as a tool to say oh how awesome it is and blah blah.

When sellers see this , they stay quiet about it but also become
jaded and suspect. When buyers realize it they become suspect
and jaded as well. It puts a negative shadow over what should
be a positive shared interest. Frankly , I am surprised you can't
see and acknowledge that.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:48 am 
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Jimmi wrote:
Ensuring all information is available is NOT another rule.

Information benefits everyone and its the cornerstone of
good communication for both the experienced and those
less so.
People talk about rules and the reality is most don't know
or follow the ones already in place but yip and yap about
something that would supply information that not only
answer more possible questions pre contact with a seller.

It's funny that some say they don't want prices known
yet the forums are riddled with questions of how much
and so on. Sellers who use bluebook to guage their price
and buyers who use it as a tool as well through searching ads.

Information that would help mate sellers and
buyers more positively , help remove some of the flippers
and the negative sales due from them and provide a source
for answers that no longer need to be littering the forums
can't be a bad thing or been seen as a rule.
Information is a requirement of good and safe business.

@kvn63
Kevin , IMO and IME the gear flippers are often a source
of the negative experiences for sales , complaints in forums
and a catalist in the ongrowing negative atomosphere that
is getting worse. Read the forums , its all but impossible to
not see the negativity and how this is a rip off and that
and so on. Users who cheat other users for profit is a source
of negative for each and every unsuspecting buyer who realizes
to late. This is a community , in my view of community we don't
take advantage of others we help them and treat them fairly.
We don't contact members of the community and tell them
every sob story going and outright lie to obtain an item then
relist it for twice that a week after going on the forums and
using the forums as a tool to say oh how awesome it is and blah blah.

When sellers see this , they stay quiet about it but also become
jaded and suspect. When buyers realize it they become suspect
and jaded as well. It puts a negative shadow over what should
be a positive shared interest. Frankly , I am surprised you can't
see and acknowledge that.


So now you are categorizing all flippers as cheats and rip off artists.

Do your research and know what you’re buying the same as you would do for a car or other high value Item, there are crooks everywhere, it called life.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:18 am 
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kvn63 wrote:

So now you are categorizing all flippers as cheats and rip off artists.

Do your research and know what you’re buying the same as you would do for a car or other high value Item, there are crooks everywhere, it called life.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I could just as easily say you just justified the cheats and rip off artists
to exist here in our community. Perhaps you should think out before you judge.
I don't require the the "its called life" rude reply. I am thinking of the ones new
to this that may require assistance where somes concern seems to be only their
sale.
Sorry for thinking for others and not just myself . Perhaps not just seeing me as
a single voice and more an echo of what people do say off print here and in person.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:24 am 
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Here is one way to fix it:

1) Do not allow the asking price to be changed once set.
2) Flag ads that put a different asking price in the body of the text. (Users can do this for the mods.)
3) If the user wants to lower the price, he takes the add off and posts a new one.

Now, you have a history of asking price -- you can see if a flipper is involved.

Before folks jump down my throat -- it's up to you to search for the info. This just allows you to do it.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:32 am 
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Location: Hamilton, ON, CA
Erik, it might be as simply as requiring the price to be left if one wants feedback.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:33 am 
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Jimmi wrote:
kvn63 wrote:

So now you are categorizing all flippers as cheats and rip off artists.

Do your research and know what you’re buying the same as you would do for a car or other high value Item, there are crooks everywhere, it called life.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I could just as easily say you just justified the cheats and rip off artists
to exist here in our community. Perhaps you should think out before you judge.
I don't require the the "its called life" rude reply. I am thinking of the ones new
to this that may require assistance where somes concern seems to be only their
sale.
Sorry for thinking for others and not just myself . Perhaps not just seeing me as
a single voice and more an echo of what people do say off print here and in person.


The forums exist to help others and for sharing knowledge. The classified section exists for people to buy and sell equipment, some are dealers, some are resellers trying to make a buck and some are everyday people either acquiring or selling, I choose to look at it as 2 different entities that share a common theme. I am sorry if some reseller did you wrong in the past but stereotyping all resellers as cheats and crooks is also wrong.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:36 am 
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Posts: 116
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
kvn63 wrote:
jferreir wrote:
Jimmi wrote:
Further to that it would also get rid of some of the gear flippers that more times than not are the source of negative sales IMO. They still have kijiiji etc to use...


This, I wholeheartedly endorse! In my view, flippers are parasitic to the CAM community. Their objective is to make money, often at the expense of an unsuspecting or naive buyer, which only harms the reputation of CAM, not to mention the hobby more generally. At the very least, I'd like to see these individuals pay higher costs similar to dealer subscriptions, and clearly identify themselves as high-volume sellers. Enforcement would be tricky, but surely something can be done. What do others think about this?


I don’t understand the hatred of gear "flippers" in my opinion they are no different than anyone else. I have purchased and sold gear to "flippers" in the past and have not had any issues. If I have something to sell I set an ask price but I also have in mind a minimum that I will take, if a "flipper" offers me a number that is in the zone I will often sell it, once I have made up my mind to sell something I usually want it gone ASAP. As for buying from a “flipper”, I don’t see how this differs from buying from anyone else, if they have it for sale and will accept the price I am willing to pay I will buy. I fail to see the distinction between “flipper” and regular buyer/seller, not much different than the local used audio dealer who takes your trade and gives you X then doubles it and sticks it on his for sale rack. I would like to see the statistics that show the “flippers” are the source of negative sales, they may be a source of low ball offers but that’s hardly a felony.


In my experience, they are markedly different. A typical CAM member would be concerned with accurately representing an item, providing responsive and respectful communication, and generally acting in good faith, keeping buyer satisfaction firmly in mind. By contrast, flippers are often less than truthful about the condition of an item, often misrepresenting the severity of the blemish/flaw, or simply failing to acknowledging it altogether. They employ several questionable methods to increase their profit margins - purposefully neglecting to provide certain information, ignoring reasonable requests for clarification, combative/accusatory tone when questioned, and the list goes on. Here are some of the things that I have witnessed or experienced firsthand:

- Listing an item as OMB, but not providing any stock accessories (e.g., power cable). No mention of this in the ad or subsequent communications, even when asked.
- Copying parts of the previous ad verbatim, thereby falsifying the ownership information.
- Consistently misrepresenting or understating the condition of the item. Using ambiguous language or grading scales as a scapegoat.
- Outright lying about actual shipping costs.
- Aggressive, accusatory tone when a dispute arises. Lack of a conciliatory or civil approach.
- Solely concerned with potential for negative feedback, and not buyer satisfaction.

These are only some of the differences. Are these actions illegal? No. Are they a PIA to deal with? Yes.

The point is that "flippers" contribute little if anything to the CAM community. Not all of them are crooks, but many of them are dishonest and act in bad faith. CAM is a website for enthusiasts - those looking to make a quick buck off an unsuspecting buyer should do so elsewhere, at least in my view. The least "flippers" can do is self-identify as a flipper, and then pay a proportionate fee for using CAM for financial gain, similar to what dealers have to do.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:42 am 
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Erik wrote:
Here is one way to fix it:

1) Do not allow the asking price to be changed once set.
2) Flag ads that put a different asking price in the body of the text. (Users can do this for the mods.)
3) If the user wants to lower the price, he takes the add off and posts a new one.

Now, you have a history of asking price -- you can see if a flipper is involved.

Before folks jump down my throat -- it's up to you to search for the info. This just allows you to do it.


Erik you are forgetting about the dealers the ones that actually pay to post ads, some of them routinely delete the prices firstly because the ask price is rarely the sell price and secondly to protect the value of future sales. This practice is not cheating or ripping people off, it’s just good business sense.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:47 am 
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Location: Golden Triangle, ON, CA
Erik wrote:
Here is one way to fix it:

1) Do not allow the asking price to be changed once set.
2) Flag ads that put a different asking price in the body of the text. (Users can do this for the mods.)
3) If the user wants to lower the price, he takes the add off and posts a new one.

Now, you have a history of asking price -- you can see if a flipper is involved.

Before folks jump down my throat -- it's up to you to search for the info. This just allows you to do it.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Exactly Erik ,
if the information is there to use its a positive addition.
If it weeds out the worst offenders for flipping where
users know this its also a positive information to use
as seen fit.
The feedback can't be as relied on as it should with
so much feedback wrongly allowed for sales the feedback
is not even related to. Numerous feedbacks for the exact same
item from the exact same seller. Yet somehow these
flippers are not seen as a source of negative?

Why remove the opportunity to have pertinent information
while allowing misleading information then claim these
sources of misleading information ie flippers are not a source of negativity :?

@ kvn63
I never said anyone in the past cheated me Kevin nor have they.
Please stop making this about me and stay on topic. Its not personal and you as a Mod and member and me not knowing what role you will impose I can only reply on topic and without being rude or accusational or making it personal. I would respect the both of you to do the same. I am not stereotyping resellers, you said that. I said flippers its a distinct difference and one you now know was my intent.

I agree in that pricing with dealers would be exempt as it would be as they may not be able
to legally post without harming their livlihood and our source for goods. But then dealers really don't fall into the flipper category at all.
Thank You.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:48 am 
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kvn63 wrote:
Erik wrote:
Here is one way to fix it:

1) Do not allow the asking price to be changed once set.
2) Flag ads that put a different asking price in the body of the text. (Users can do this for the mods.)
3) If the user wants to lower the price, he takes the add off and posts a new one.

Now, you have a history of asking price -- you can see if a flipper is involved.

Before folks jump down my throat -- it's up to you to search for the info. This just allows you to do it.


Erik you are forgetting about the dealers the ones that actually pay to post ads, some of them routinely delete the prices firstly because the ask price is rarely the sell price and secondly to protect the value of future sales. This practice is not cheating or ripping people off, it’s just good business sense.


Sorry kvn63 but that answer is classic CAM services Dealers first speak which is by far the biggest issue with the credibility of this marketplace. We have all see how paying for Dealer status lets one get away with stuff a user never could.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:02 am 
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Stark wrote:
kvn63 wrote:
Erik wrote:
Here is one way to fix it:

1) Do not allow the asking price to be changed once set.
2) Flag ads that put a different asking price in the body of the text. (Users can do this for the mods.)
3) If the user wants to lower the price, he takes the add off and posts a new one.

Now, you have a history of asking price -- you can see if a flipper is involved.

Before folks jump down my throat -- it's up to you to search for the info. This just allows you to do it.


Erik you are forgetting about the dealers the ones that actually pay to post ads, some of them routinely delete the prices firstly because the ask price is rarely the sell price and secondly to protect the value of future sales. This practice is not cheating or ripping people off, it’s just good business sense.


Sorry kvn63 but that answer is classic CAM services Dealers first speak which is by far the biggest issue with the credibility of this marketplace. We have all see how paying for Dealer status lets one get away with stuff a user never could.


So I guess we should stop allowing dealers on the site now too as the "get away with stuff" :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:24 am 
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As far as I know dealers and high volume account holders are the only source of income for this site. Regardless of any possible favoritism for these paying members by those who run and or moderate this site, where would CAM be without them? Extinct, is what I believe. Simply an observation I am not condoning the practice.

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