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Feedback for dealers regarding experience OUTSIDE of CAM must go in the Dealer Feedback Forum.



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 Post subject: My first Experience....
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:57 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:02 am
Posts: 1
Location: Minneola, FL, US
Hi all,

I am new to USAudioMart and thought I would at least give a report on my first experience trying to purchase something from one of the adds.

A pair of speakers that I have been looking for "used" for quite some time appear for a very good price here on USAudioMart. So I decide (Like most I assume) to join immediately, contact the seller, and purchase the speakers. I contacted the seller immediately (excited of course), and the response was "hello, Just to make sure, the price is plus shipping . So depending where you are in relation to san francisco , ca determines the cost of shipping." That's it - nothing more. This response comes after I said I wanted to buy the speakers. So, the average person would assume that the sellers is agreeing to sell these to you as long as you are paying for the shipping.

Assuming this, my response to him was "Hi, Certainly. I fully expected to pay for shipping as I live on the other coast (fl)." After not hearing back from the seller after I stated that I wanted to purchase the speakers, I emailed him again twice. The next day his response was "To be honest , I have had alot of interest locally and will probably sell locally so I don't have to ship. "

I immediately asked myself "Is this normal? Perhaps people do this sort of thing all the time, and I just have to get used to it (this was my first attempt to purchase anything through USAudiomart)" - also, "There has to be other people who have experienced this sort of "lazy" attitude, and lack of integrity from sellers - I can't be the only one". So I decide to come to the website to find out. My search lead me to read about feedback, the rules, and to find others who have experienced this sort of thing, or something at least similar.

This brings me to two very important issues.

After reading the rules about feedback on a seller, it is clear that no one is allowed to leave negative feedback on a seller unless something has changed hands (money - product). So, I am thinking "well wait a minute, what happens to those people who get screwed?" And then a flicker of hope came from a particular rule which states, and I quote "Do NOT use feedback to warn users about OTHER exchanges you may have had with the user. Report those in our Negative feedback forum instead. So, I come to the "negative feedback forum" instead to a) post my negative feedback, and b) warn others. Low and behold, I find that USAudioMart breaks it's own rules by not allowing people to leave negative feedback in the forums as well on anyone without something changing hands. The obvious issue arises - 1) Why would you direct members to leave negative feedback in the forums about sellers to warn others, and then in the forum rules, you restrict the very thing you told members to do in the first place? :oops: To Wit, my last response from the seller is quoting this very rule in a rather "there is nothing you can do about it hahaha" way!! In other words, he is rubbing it in my face that I cannot leave a negative comment as he can take advantage of the rule!! How modern of him to do so, and so obliging of you to allow it...lol.

The second issue is regarding the nature of those who are allowed to buy and sell products. If you have no desire to govern the buying and selling of products by monitoring the credibility of the same, then what is your purpose? Of course, you might say "well it governs itself as buyers are allowed to leave negative feedback on things purchased". So, just to clarify, your only concern is for those who actually spend the money to buy something, and not those who have the money in hand, but hasn't made it's way to the hands of the seller? Are you getting a kickback from paypal? lol - good grief! If I wanted to purchase higher end audio products online from unsavory characters, I could have saved myself the time to join, giving you some personal information, the emails to the buyer, and the frustration of a "first time buyer" experience that is nothing short of one mimicking a "buy here - pay here" car lot. Heck, I could buy audio from craigslist if I didn't care about the character of the person selling, nor the experience of the gamble. What do I need you for? Ah, the listing!! Well, people who list here, list elsewhere, so what's the point?

In reality, I need some help here. Perhaps you could help me disseminate the difference between craigslist, and USAudioMart. The only difference my first and only experience has led me to believe is that one requires membership, the other doesn't, but with either you get the same base of "exemplary", free roaming used car salesmen. Perhaps I should have "begged" him to ship the speakers he said he would ship? Maybe I should have offered to be a surrogate father for his next child, complete with the Ferrari of his choice?

I certainly hope someone can shed some light on what appears to be your typical online buyers dilemma that a membership oriented website can't seem to solve either. Perhaps it is worth paying for membership? Please tell me I have this all wrong? Please tell me you actually care about what goes on here? Please tell me you will not disenfranchise someone by not allowing them to share the experiences had from dealing with people posting adds on your website? Please be gentle in your response, and I am new, and I honestly have no idea what to expect both from a buying experience, or from the forums...

I'm sorry for writing a book, and I am also sorry in advance for my next two questions. 1) Does anyone know where I can buy good used audio equipment through a free, but trusted host website that makes sure it's buyers and sellers have at least a minimum detection of integrity? 2) Does anyone have a pair of Klipsch RS-7's for say $75 plus shipping?

Thanks in advance
Wunji

Be gentle!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:29 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:17 am
Posts: 13719
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Really? You consider the fact the guy prefers to deal locally an issue worthy of negative feedback? :shock:

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:35 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 6:03 pm
Posts: 1199
Location: Vancouver, BC, CA
Hi Wunji,

Thanks for the long post. You clearly care a lot about your first experience and you detail a frustrating start on the site.

On the topic of Feedback, we get asked this from time to time. The rule is there to protect both buyer and seller. With no concrete exchange taking place, there can only be "he said, she said" type arguments which does nobody any good. Obviously this leaves some holes that people take advantage of, but ultimately, transactions that take place between people should remain private unless someone has been cheated out of their money. I know recently there's been some ideas to hold people accountable for how to behave as a seller even if no sale goes through, but then we'd need to hold buyers accountable as well and then we come back to the "he said, she said" argument. Simply put, we do not have the resources to police and determine the truths of disagreements where no exchange has been made, because its all based on stories from 2 parties, the validity and accuracy of which can be easily manipulated. This is also the reason that we only allow people to post feedback about a person if they have firsthand experience dealing with them. In the past people tried to post feedback based on something their friend told them about.

I think an interesting way to curb this type of thing is to change the system slightly to allow making formal offers on items, which, once accepted, cannot be turned down without legitimate Negative Feedback being given. This might result in fewer buyers backing out at the last minute, or sellers deciding to sell to someone else after a deal is made.

In your particular case, I don't know if I'd interpret the response as an ironclad agreement to sell to you, anymore than you'd want your initial email to be an ironclad offer to buy (say you found out shipping was too expensive). For instance, even with an Offer system in place, my guess is you'd want to reply first to get more information, before making a formal offer, at which point the seller might have rejected on the grounds they decided they prefer not to ship.

Bottom line is that USAM/CAM does care about these things, but we need to work within frameworks that are reasonable and maintainable. In the current setup, that framework is to allow Feedback only after an exchange is made (and yes, if you get ripped off, that's still an exchange). I'd be curious what people thought about my idea of the "Make Offer" concept though.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:41 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:37 pm
Posts: 763
Location: Markham, ON, CA
Wunji, wow!!!
I hope that you never see my adds.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:52 pm 
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Location: Not Toronto, ON, CA
I would be more curious as to why the person selling a pair of moderately expensive speakers for a ridiculously low price is acting even more dodgy than their ad... if anything, I would consider it a blessing in disguise.

-- 27 Aug 2013 02:52 --

I would be more curious as to why the person selling a pair of moderately expensive speakers for a ridiculously low price is acting even more dodgy than their ad... if anything, I would consider it a blessing in disguise.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:57 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:20 am
Posts: 523
Location: Nelson, BC, CA
Hi there. I would take his first email as expecting that he would sell them to me provided that I pay for the shipping. So refusing to sell them to you after saying so does not show integrity at all in my books. I , the same as you, would be upset too, considering you were looking for those
specific speakers for a while. To sum up though, I have lost out on a few transaction's since dealing on CAM, albeit, the situations were slightly
different. What I have learned though is to not get my hopes up until the deal is sealed. Unfortunately everybody does business a little differently and some people simply do not have any integrity, maybe even more so when dealing with others over the internet. Don't let this
discourage you though, as I have done a handful of transaction's through CAM, and met some great people in the process, that surprised me
with their amount of integrity. There are far less Shmoe's than you think and I would just sluff this off my shoulder and move on.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:07 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:43 am
Posts: 1176
Location: Guelph, ON, CA
Wunji,
Welcome to the audio mart.
Sorry to hear your first experience was meager.
Not all transactions go this way.
Head up and stick on the ice. Get back in the game sir.
Cheers!l


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:12 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:10 am
Posts: 658
Location: hamilton, ON, CA
i reply to ads all the time with no response from sellers its like they want to pick and choose there buyers must be nice.


Last edited by rednecknber on Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:14 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:00 am
Posts: 1221
Location: Guelph, ON, CA
CAM is different from E-Bay and Audiogon. One difference is that purchasers on E-Bay and Audiogon rarely meet the seller in person...the goods can easily be sold on a Buy It Now basis with exclusions for places the seller may not ship to + either a shipping statement within the ad or shipping prices using a shipping calculator.

I would venture to guess that many CAM buyers/sellers (including me) appreciate the personal contact they get with other Cammers and might not like the E-Bay/Audiogon model here. That doesn't mean I don't buy from Audiogon/E-Bay but recognize they are not all the same and that is good.

Think of it like a relationship. E-Bay/Audiogon would be like a blind date or mail-order-bride. You might be okay... but if things are not as described, you might have wished for a trial period or even a "quick peek" before committing. CAM is where you get to go on a bit of a date before you say yes (or no). Sometimes it might not work out but there are rewards to be had when it does.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:07 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:45 am
Posts: 1117
Location: Burlington, ON, CA
There was no lack of integrity - he chose not to do business with you. Nothing was promised and you are not entitled to the item just because you expressed a desire to buy. You are buying from an individual, not Wal-Mart. Maybe you came off as pushy. Maybe he didn't want to ship (even many dealers won't do that if they are missing the boxes). I price low so I can choose the person I want to do business with - lots of feedback, local etc. Most hobbyists aren't into the wheeling and dealing. And you should beware of those that are.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:36 am 
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Posts: 1107
Location: London, ON, CA
There are two sides to every story. We've heard but one.

Perhaps if you had taken the same passive-aggressive tact with the seller like you did with the note to Admin (Kudos on the high-road response Admin, BTW) the seller didn't want to deal with you.

This site does not take financial gain from the deals done here, and they are not resposible in any way for the financial dealings of members.
If you want a heavily buyer slanted feedback system may I suggest you stick to eBay.

On the idea of the "Make Offer" possibility - IMHO it will just lead to more hassles than benefits. Others may think differently.

Adults dealing with adults in the current system seems to strike the right balance for the vast majority of members.
If the system doesn't work for you, please ask for a full membership refund! :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:51 am 
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Posts: 705
Location: Surrey, BC, CA
admin wrote:

I think an interesting way to curb this type of thing is to change the system slightly to allow making formal offers on items, which, once accepted, cannot be turned down without legitimate Negative Feedback being given. This might result in fewer buyers backing out at the last minute, or sellers deciding to sell to someone else after a deal is made.

I'd be curious what people thought about my idea of the "Make Offer" concept though.


I like this Idea, it fair for both the seller and buyer while also allowing the seller to sort out real buyers from the tire kickers.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:59 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:01 am
Posts: 706
Location: Georgetown, ON, CA
Quote:
I emailed him again twice. The next day his response was "To be honest , I have had alot of interest locally and will probably sell locally so I don't have to ship. "

I immediately asked myself "Is this normal? Perhaps people do this sort of thing all the time, and I just have to get used to it


Yes this is normal. I would much rather sell a pair of speakers locally than ship them, but I do make this clear in my listing. "prefer local sale"


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:10 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:55 am
Posts: 2580
Location: iii, ON, CA
You have a lot to learn about dealing online.You have no business trying to leave a negative for a deal that never happened.At the end of the day, all sellers have a right to deal with who they want to,just as buyers have the same right.I really get riled up when buyers come on with the holier than thou attitude. Grow up and move on.

-- 27 Aug 2013 16:11 --

terryakhan wrote:
Wunji, wow!!!
I hope that you never see my adds.



++++++++++++1


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:18 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:26 am
Posts: 21
Location: Gatineau, QC, CA
I think the first poster was very exited then very disapointed...very emotional response.

Al


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