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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:50 pm 
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milesian wrote:
Sadly, it will have to retail in the Can$500 range to change my game.


Hello milesian,

At $625, you can take a chance, a chance that costs you nothing but your time and effort of listening. The $625 fee, includes tax and shipping to most of Canada. Which brings it perilously close to the $500 number you state.

If you don't like it, send it back for a full refund. You'll be out the $15-20 for the return shipping. (not exactly zero cost, but pretty darned low)

We're willing to put in the effort to construct that cable...... and betting that you won't return it.

We never bet on this sort of thing. In that context...We're betting the odds of a return are so close to zero... that we feel that less than 1 in 50 will return a cable.

Thank you for your time and interest.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:41 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:06 am 
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Philosophil wrote:
It will have to retail in the $50.00 range (for at least 20 ft. of cable) to change mine. :lol:

By the way, I say this not to slight the OP's cables, but because that's about as much as I typically spend on cables. :D

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:40 am 
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Teo Audio wrote:
Manipulation of the technology into a successful outcome requires a different set of considerations compared to that of solid wire audio cable design. These considerations do not exist in living memory or any place of learning, or technological library -or similar depository. They did not exist until we explored them for nearly a decade.

This becomes, and is...our accumulated lore and knowledge -- which is the basis of our value in the act of commercial trade.

These things will not be disseminated into the public purview, for what we feel are obvious common sense reasons.
Understood. However, since the refund on a user trial is dependent on returned condition I'd like to know what warranties are in effect, and what kind of use/accidental abuse tests these cables are designed to withstand. If damaged, ordinary cables can simply be trimmed and, in most case, resoldered. Not so with these. How many insertions/removals have these been tested to? How easily do they withstand kinking and/or stretching? What is the life expectancy in years of the complete cable? What is the charge if a repair becomes necessary?

The other point is that the Eichmann connectors often need to be custom fit to a given female connector by use of a heat gun to relax the plastic. Has this been done at the factory or is it incumbent on the user to do so, and if so, does this constitute abuse on the factory condition of the connector?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:59 am 
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ripblade wrote:
Teo Audio wrote:
Manipulation of the technology into a successful outcome requires a different set of considerations compared to that of solid wire audio cable design. These considerations do not exist in living memory or any place of learning, or technological library -or similar depository. They did not exist until we explored them for nearly a decade.

This becomes, and is...our accumulated lore and knowledge -- which is the basis of our value in the act of commercial trade.

These things will not be disseminated into the public purview, for what we feel are obvious common sense reasons.


Understood. However, since the refund on a user trial is dependent on returned condition I'd like to know what warranties are in effect, and what kind of use/accidental abuse tests these cables are designed to withstand. If damaged, ordinary cables can simply be trimmed and, in most case, resoldered. Not so with these. How many insertions/removals have these been tested to? How easily do they withstand kinking and/or stretching? What is the life expectancy in years of the complete cable? What is the charge if a repair becomes necessary?

The other point is that the Eichmann connectors often need to be custom fit to a given female connector by use of a heat gun to relax the plastic. Has this been done at the factory or is it incumbent on the user to do so, and if so, does this constitute abuse on the factory condition of the connector?


Hello ripblade,

It is only common sense for us to cover ourselves with the understanding, before purchase, that the cable is to be returned in good condition. If we leave a hole in the underwriting of the transaction for abuse to occur, it inevitably does. Any person with broad experience in retail sale, will quickly confirm that. For example, a customer can abuse the cable or have an accident with it, then attempt to say it was defective or try and sell it as in perfect condition, to a 'second hand' buyer. Then the buyer is stuck with a defective cable. Which leads to other possible issues and so on down the road.

In practice, we are overwhelmingly lenient and forgiving...but even mentioning such --leaves us open to being abused in the aftermath of a given mishap or misdeed. So we deal with that on an individual basis, like all other companies do.

All intelligently and functionally minded company management systems give a limited liability warranty in their products, for the purposes of being a line of defense in the legal ramifications department. Then they work to do their best to retain customers and maintain reputations, even if it can be unfairly costly at times. If they are wise, they can use even that...as a method of expanding their customer base.

For example, look at what was said of Parasound in the Parasound leaves Canada thread. People wanted to keep Parasound around, and even went though the effort of mentioning Parasound's very fair and decent policies toward customers, which were highlighted as being 'above and beyond the call of duty'. At the same time, note that some came into the thread and committed acts of derision in their text, toward Parasound.

In essence, Limited liability warranty text and associated purchase agreement conditions..are utilized by the entire audio industry... where in that... it serves as a line of defense, for the given company, in order to deal with the potential customers and actual customers who can generally - never be satisfied. Thankfully there are not that many of them, but, in reality...they generally constitute the vast majority of a company's stress load.

As for longevity, well, it's all going to come down to the owner of the cable committing to subtle re-adjustments in how they do things. The cables are not of the nature of solid wire in the same way, one might say, as a tricycle is compared to a bicycle. The tricycle can bounce off the walls, bang into things, come to stop and not fall over, and so on. But riding a bicycle is a far more rewarding experience, that has the capacity to take the rider very far and into a totally different and more expansive world than that of the tricycle.

In the same way, if one readjusts their handling habits for this particular cable vs that of solid wire, the rewards may take one on a different path.

It's analogous to switching from solid state to to tubes. Different handling methods are required. Or in the case of lean and mean tube preamps in conjunction with DC capable solid state power amps and similar devices. Sometimes it's hot rodded CD players and so on. These things run with no safeties and a simple change in handing methodologies and practices need to take place and generally do with no muss and no fuss.

The cables are not delicate with regard to general handling, but they simply need to be respected, like a old school tube preamp that has no relays being used to feed a DC capable power amplifier.

Even the vast majority of video projectors have issues. If the AC power goes out and the given projector has no chance to begin and complete a cool down cycle. If that undesirous situation happens, the bulb may explode, and sometimes does... it may destroy the DLP color wheel and make the projector a useless lump. This happens all the time... and probably millions of people have bought and still buy DLP projectors to this day. So one can hype fears of possibility and unknowns, but the measured reality says something quite different.

To return to the the cable longevity issue again, this cable does not use Eichmann connectors. It uses "Kieth Louis Eichmann connectors", which are from a different source than the 'ETI' connectors. They are not 'Eichmann' connectors as people traditionally know. To come down mildly on the audio nervousa method of playing with audio, the cable is not designed for being swapped in and out of multiple systems, hundreds of times. No cable is. There is no reason it cannot be, but it does depend on this idea of changing one's behavior toward the given cable handling routines that one has learned and repeats up to this present day. To drop the tricycle and move to the bicycle, so to speak. Which simply requires new habits. Under such a scenario, there is no reason the given liquid metal cable might last 50 years or more. We can re-terminate a cable with just a damaged connector, but it should not be attempted by anyone else.

Being sealed, the liquid metal wire does not suffer surface oxidation issues. Solid wire, all of it, with any form of contact with dielectric or air, suffers surface oxidation issues. Since the given cables are known to utilize the surface of the solid wire so fundamentally (note the constant barrage of data on how surface on wire is treated, as this is critical to wire and signal conduction), this potential for oxidization is a thing which is going to inevitably take place. It is a time and environment based problem they all suffer.

In the case of the fluid metal cable, no surface exposure of any kind... in effect, there is no definable surface to the wire, at all. The interaction of the surface of the fluid with the ion cloud -or the the current and voltage fields... is one of a neutrally charged high mass molecular/quantum nature, one which is dynamically variable with the signal load and fields itself. Between each individual molecule, dynamically, on the fly.

Which is why it is difficult to measure fundamental aspects of LCR, as the cable dynamically shifts with the load. One has to change their understanding of what a cable is at this point.

Magnetohydrodynamics, is what is going on:

Quote:
Magnetohydrodynamics (MHD) (magneto fluid dynamics or hydromagnetics) is the study of the magnetic properties of electrically conducting fluids. Examples of such magneto-fluids include plasmas, liquid metals, and salt water or electrolytes. The word magnetohydrodynamics (MHD) is derived from magneto- meaning magnetic field, hydro- meaning water, and -dynamics meaning movement. The field of MHD was initiated by Hannes Alfvén,[1] for which he received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1970.

The fundamental concept behind MHD is that magnetic fields can induce currents in a moving conductive fluid, which in turn polarizes the fluid and reciprocally changes the magnetic field itself. The set of equations that describe MHD are a combination of the Navier-Stokes equations of fluid dynamics and Maxwell's equations of electromagnetism. These differential equations must be solved simultaneously, either analytically or numerically.


The liquid metal cable is more of a 'low impedance'/complimentary plasma channel interface zone. which is what an analog electrical audio signal is. It is a highly dynamic and shifting ion cloud.

Signal merely follows and interfaces with solid wire and dielectrics, as wire is of lower impedance than air. But neither are a perfect interface for the ion cloud ...as the solids have multi-axis polarized and locked electron orbital lattice structures (frozen fluid, ie, wire) as does the dielectric interface issues..which individually and together... cause phase shift and distortions in the signal when the complex dynamic signal is transferred in this matrix. This bag of alterations in the signal amount to what we call LCR. (L=Inductance, C=Capacitance, R=resistance)

The signal is all built out of highly complex dynamic change, and the fluid dances with the signal itself, and thus all regular known methods of calculating LCR..... fail.

If one measures the Liquid metal cable, they will get a number, but it will be a reflection of the fluid metal quantum mass reactions and the test signal, in paired dynamic reflection, as interpreted by the mathematical formula the given test signal is based upon. And those formulas the test signal result is interpreted through, in the meter, even at the $100k meter and lab level...are very much not designed to work with fluids. So far, nothing is designed to work with fluids and give a correct number. Which is meaningless if you finally get to a number, as the moment the fluid goes dynamic in response to the dynamic load, the meaning is reset.

There is no university, research lab, or whatever that you can go to to today, which has the expertise to fully analyze the interactions and state unequivocally, exactly what is going on. The mathematics exist, but it is generally understood by all involved, to be a Newtonian generalization/averaging of what is fundamentally a quantum system....and in that, lies only generalizations, not specifics. Specifics so fiendishly complex... that they cannot be computer modeled at this time, with any form of perfection. We (humanity and science) simply do not have the computing power to get beyond the analysis of just a few molecules in interaction. Much can be garnered, but it is certainly not a perfected clarity.

We can generalize and consider, and we can garner a few useful understandings through design, testing and listening. One of which is that a true molecualr quantum fluid** metal of low impedance.... is apparently a better interface for transfer of dynamic and complex electrically based audio signals, than that of prior usage and methodology.

(** EG, water is one, but of high electrical impedance. Polarizing water with with ph offset to increase conductivity, does not improve it, nay, it faults it)


In conclusion, we've had people hammer us for an explanation of what is going on with the liquid metal cable designs. Generally it comes from the kind of people I mention above, when speaking about potential problems for given companies. These people constitute a very small minority of the buying public but make up the vast percentage the stress loads for individual companies and the entire audio ecosystem.

We could get some Chairs...gather 10-20 physicists and Nobel laureates in a semi-cirlce around a person who is interested in what is going on with the cables... and try and explain what is going on with the the fluid metal cables. These professional people probably could not do it in a way that is meaningful. It very likely would not be enough for the more implacable people who constitute the majority of the problems a company may encounter. That problem person would still scream about charlatans, snake-oil, and thieves.

Thank you for your questions and time.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:40 am 
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As for sending a cable out to do the rounds, we're not so keen on that, as mentioned earlier in this thread.

However, We're not opposed to taking a few of the cables out to an audiophile gathering, somewhere between Montreal and Toronto.

We would prefer the audio system to be as intense and tuned as is possible.

Ie, $100k speakers in a dedicated room with good acoustics, full of people who are intimately familiar with those speakers and system, $50k balanced amplifiers, $50k digital front end with balanced cables, similar quality of analog front end, and preamp.

Hopefully... the given class A++ equipment has similar effort put into their single ended input/output design and implementation as their balanced inputs/outputs.

Of course, with the greatest balanced cables known to humanity, with probably the same kind of pricing, cables that are chosen as they work well in that set up.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm not so good are remembering what and when in the specifics, but it's out there and I'll see if I can find it.

Ah, there it is. One of them, anyway. Best of show, at the 'T.H.E. Show', in multiple years. As well as many others of similar note:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7GupEzzrA8

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:45 am 
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Teo Audio wrote:
milesian wrote:
Sadly, it will have to retail in the Can$500 range to change my game.


Hello milesian,

At $625, you can take a chance, a chance that costs you nothing but your time and effort of listening. The $625 fee, includes tax and shipping to most of Canada. Which brings it perilously close to the $500 number you state.

If you don't like it, send it back for a full refund. You'll be out the $15-20 for the return shipping. (not exactly zero cost, but pretty darned low)

We're willing to put in the effort to construct that cable...... and betting that you won't return it.

We never bet on this sort of thing. In that context...We're betting the odds of a return are so close to zero... that we feel that less than 1 in 50 will return a cable.

Thank you for your time and interest.


You have piqued my interest. When you have some time, please message me and we'll talk. Cheers.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:01 pm 
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This is interesting stuff to be sure...

Just from a consumers point of view you might want to abbreviate your answers , the long winded nature of your respones are very difficult to follow.... That's not going to serve you well.


I see the cables listed as patent pending, is there an application or number available for us to view ?... Reading that info might help us understand what is going on here. Please don't respond with the typical retort that the info is proprietory as once the app is made you have protected you intellectual properties.
You could do well to follow Analysis Plus and openly publish there patent.... That has integrity.
I'm not suggesting you don't have integrity I'm simply saying if all you have is a bunch of long winded borderline generic rhetoric and a money back offer ( caveots included) it's going to be a very tough sell.

Just my two cents


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:06 pm 
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Patent searching, like cable abuse, is inevitable....

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars ... PN/8362358

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:29 pm 
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ADCO wrote:
This is interesting stuff to be sure...

Just from a consumers point of view you might want to abbreviate your answers , the long winded nature of your respones are very difficult to follow.... That's not going to serve you well.


I see the cables listed as patent pending, is there an application or number available for us to view ?... Reading that info might help us understand what is going on here. Please don't respond with the typical retort that the info is proprietory as once the app is made you have protected you intellectual properties.
You could do well to follow Analysis Plus and openly publish there patent.... That has integrity.
I'm not suggesting you don't have integrity I'm simply saying if all you have is a bunch of long winded borderline generic rhetoric and a money back offer ( caveots included) it's going to be a very tough sell.

Just my two cents


Hello ADCO,

Some desire long answers and some see short answers as evasive. Some dislike long answers and..so on.

The text is neither rhetoric nor generic, if you read it. It was something that needed to be gotten out of the way with. Otherwise, conversations would quickly rise into a crescendo....then a lengthily period of abuse.... that would very likely end badly. I've been on the net, since before the net existed, talking about audio - since 1993. I know the pattern. I watched it evolve from nothing into what it is today.

As for the rest; the demand query disguised as common sense fact - does not carry water. Not in any intellectual property situation of note that I've ever heard of. :)

Thank you for your time, interest, and effort.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:11 am 
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It's not the the length of the answer, but the style in which the response is communicated that I find hard to follow.

I much prefer simple straight forward communication.

As an example, you wrote
Quote:
Manipulation of the technology into a successful outcome requires a different set of considerations compared to that of solid wire audio cable design. These considerations do not exist in living memory or any place of learning, or technological library -or similar depository. They did not exist until we explored them for nearly a decade.

This becomes, and is...our accumulated lore and knowledge -- which is the basis of our value in the act of commercial trade.

These things will not be disseminated into the public purview, for what we feel are obvious common sense reasons.
Quote:
"As for the rest; the demand query disguised as common sense fact - does not carry water. Not in any intellectual property situation of note that I've ever heard of"
I don't have a clue what this means and this language "style" is repeated in your responses.

Notwithstanding the above, I do find your cables interesting and like the money back trial period!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:20 am 
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J E Boy wrote:
It's not the the length of the answer, but the style in which the response is communicated that I find hard to follow.

I much prefer simple straight forward communication.

As an example, you wrote
Quote:
Manipulation of the technology into a successful outcome requires a different set of considerations compared to that of solid wire audio cable design. These considerations do not exist in living memory or any place of learning, or technological library -or similar depository. They did not exist until we explored them for nearly a decade.

This becomes, and is...our accumulated lore and knowledge -- which is the basis of our value in the act of commercial trade.

These things will not be disseminated into the public purview, for what we feel are obvious common sense reasons.
Quote:
"As for the rest; the demand query disguised as common sense fact - does not carry water. Not in any intellectual property situation of note that I've ever heard of"
I don't have a clue what this means and this language "style" is repeated in your responses.

Notwithstanding the above, I do find your cables interesting and like the money back trial period!

I'm no expert, but let me give it a try. 8)

1. "Manipulation of the technology into a successful outcome requires a different set of considerations compared to that of solid wire audio cable design."

Translation: The logistics of cable design for liquid metal is very different from that of copper wire.

2. "These considerations do not exist in living memory or any place of learning, or technological library -or similar depository. They did not exist until we explored them for nearly a decade."

Translation: Since liquid metal cables are new to the market then we had to start from scratch and it has taken us ten years to develop a workable design.

3. "This becomes, and is...our accumulated lore and knowledge -- which is the basis of our value in the act of commercial trade."

Translation: Since we're the only ones with the expertise and know-how needed to successfully build cables of this sort then this justifies our prices.

4. "These things will not be disseminated into the public purview, for what we feel are obvious common sense reasons."

Translation: Our manufacturing processes will remain a secret, known only to us.... :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:41 am 
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Hello Phil,

Close, We've been building cables all along. Each one considered to be..well..we know the rules for speaking on product.

To get to this particular combination of price vs performance... that took quite a bit of time.

Thank you for your time.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:11 am 
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J E Boy wrote:

Notwithstanding the above, I do find your cables interesting and like the money back trial period!


Hello J E Boy,

I'll shorten it up for you, then.

Look at the advert text, look for a specific word that starts with the letter P, and note the statement about price vs performance as a thing worked for and arrived at.

Then take a gander at a review of some Teo Audio cables, at Dagogo.

http://www.dagogo.com/teo-audio-liquid-cables-review

Then put that whole set together, with the idea and thought, from Teo Audio, that returns would be near Nil, with such a 'money back if not delighted' guarantee. The two principles of Teo Audio do not take chances or gamble.

We're following the rules of the forum, as we should--rules which are slightly different for things like PM's. We can talk about the science of it, though. The science, or the physics, if you will... involves some immutable and inescapable truths.

Thank you for your time.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:22 am 
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Hello all,

Someone started a thread about the cable and I feel it is déclassé for a manufacturer to intrude in such without a directly asked for involvement. Some questions were asked that only Teo can initially answer, so I will add the requested data here.

The question of break in time. It is expected to be 250 hours, for final break in. This is tied to the expected break in time for the KLE RCA jacks used on this cable. The cable itself, the fluid itself, only takes about half an hour, but the rest of the transmission system, with respect to the GC RCA cable... takes those 250 hours, overall.

All our cables arrive partially or fully broken in, as all are listened to, by ear, in a serious system, before being shipped. They might be half or fully broken in, depending on how they sat in the manufacturing cycle vs their delivery cycle.

Some other questions asked are more properly answered via PM, and those with the more 'hairy' questions, should consider that route.

Thank you for your time.

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