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PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:02 am 
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Quadzilla wrote:
FoxFoxFox wrote:
I'm 20 and a girl... trust me, going into audio stores is weird, I'm often second guessed even though I usually end up knowing more about the tech stuff than the dealers. I'm not Oprah rich but I did well enough for myself that I could afford semi decent gear when I was buying stuff. Nowadays, I'm a tire kicker, hence I don't go into stores much unless I'm looking for something very specific to test out.


"I usually end up knowing more about the tech stuff than the dealers." ... I think we might possibly be getting to the bottom of the problem.

20-somethings in general could benefit greatly from talking a lot less and listening a lot more. It might come as a huge shock, but you don't know as much as you think you do. None of us did when we were 20.



That is one big assumption!
I had an experience with a salesman who never heard of rogue audio ... made my 99 pre sheot in his mind.

-- 29 Feb 2016 17:03 --

Quadzilla wrote:
FoxFoxFox wrote:
I'm 20 and a girl... trust me, going into audio stores is weird, I'm often second guessed even though I usually end up knowing more about the tech stuff than the dealers. I'm not Oprah rich but I did well enough for myself that I could afford semi decent gear when I was buying stuff. Nowadays, I'm a tire kicker, hence I don't go into stores much unless I'm looking for something very specific to test out.


"I usually end up knowing more about the tech stuff than the dealers." ... I think we might possibly be getting to the bottom of the problem.

20-somethings in general could benefit greatly from talking a lot less and listening a lot more. It might come as a huge shock, but you don't know as much as you think you do. None of us did when we were 20.



That is one big assumption!
I had an experience with a salesman who never heard of rogue audio ... made my 99 pre sheot in his mind.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:05 am 
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FoxFoxFox wrote:
Quadzilla wrote:

Write that down and read it back to yourself if ten or twenty years. You will embarrass yourself.


Oh I will but they're pitching outdated things to me.

I remember when I used to seek out vinyl... what a mistake. Hell after looking into the science I'm not even opposed to truly digital crossovers anymore, as once you start going into floating point for DSP, the errors become far less impactful than any passive or active crossovers could possibly hope for. Digital volume control as well is tempting however, I'll be sticking to pure passive attenuation for a good while.




I have no doubt in my mind that you know an awful lot about what you have mentioned above.

Keep in mind, its not up to a store or sales associate to "know more than you", its their job to listen to what your goals are show you gear that will help you accomplish those goals. Expecting more than that (or for them to know more than you) is unfair.

You would be much better off speaking to the distributors, and engineers who attend CES, or TAVES, or similar shows. You have a deep base of knowledge in a very cutting edge (from the sounds of it) application and deserve to discuss the equipment and technology on a level that 99% of stores can't offer.

I'm not 20, but I'm not yet 40 either, with kids in daycare, and before/after school programs my spending ability is limited. I do choose to spend what budget I have though in stores that make me feel that what I'm buying is what I need. Not less of a person because it's not from their "roped off room".

To the OP, I have felt as you do and the best thing you can do is forget about who it was and let you dollars speak for themselves.....elsewhere.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:09 am 
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Hi,

Chill - guys and gals. The rise of Mr. Trump south of here indicates we are living in an age of noisy faux 'digs' and bellicose remarks. Let's not import that attitude.

Audio sales people come in different shapes and sizes. Some believe they have to belittle the customer; some try to overwhelm you with technical talk; some just listen and adjust to your needs; some point you to interesting solutions. Customers are diverse; some 'know it all'; some 'know a bit', and some 'know nothing'. Like first dates, expectation gaps frequently arise.

It's important to find a match. Some of the best recommendations I have had over fifty years came from a dealer in Massachusetts who has yet to sell me a toothpick. But I always pass his name and the shop on to every next serious buyer I encounter. His co-ordinates are available to all by this forums private message service.

Cheers,
David Neice

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:15 am 
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OP,

All I would say is that respect is a two-way street. If you want to be treated with respect, lead by example. Dealers need to turn a profit. There is an opportunity cost to speaking with customers about expensive gear that they can't buy. So by all means, as a customer take up SOME of the salesperson's time but recognize that their time is equally as valuable as your own.

Posting a rant on a forum because you've been slighted isn't a good attitude to take if you wish to be respected.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:25 am 
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Many of us have experienced rude salesmen before. I still do as many judge their potential customers by what they wear. I usually wear sweats and a t-shirt when I visit audio stores and I am often ignored. When they do ask what system I have they tend to perk up a bit but there are others who are more receptive from the start. Not all salesmen are rude.

As for knowing a lot, this is of course relative. I am still exploring and learning different things after 40 years in the audio hobby. My opinions have also changed from time to time. I started with analogue Lp's, then thought cd's sounded better, then went back to lp's and now I am exploring digital files.

I am also exploring the power side of audio. From a technical point of view there shouldn't be much difference between cables, power cords, receptacles etc. but my ears are telling me different. I have a M.Sc. degree in physics so I am not easily fooled by snake oil claims but it is fun to experiment with new things.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:42 am 
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Fox3, so nice to have younger people here, and a female at that.

Sounds like you have started to a build a very good basis of knowledge on the technology of music making. However at 20, you probably have not finished your formal training.

I started as an audiophile in earnest in my early twenties while in engineering school in Kingston. I thought I knew quite a lot and enjoyed discussing the science of sound. It took me years to fully understand why I was hearing what I was hearing from many of the high end brands of the day. The interaction of rooms and speakers, matching amps to speakers, why all digital does not sound the same and why digital (to my ears) never worked for me as well as different philosophies of turntables and the importance of wire and power. And being a mechanical (auto and manufacturing) engineer, I have focused all recent tweaks on isolation and reducing mechanical vibration (it affects wires too).

It sounds like you are a digital person and there are many here on CAM who are as well (and many are also engineers). I am an LP guy but my son your who is about your age uses both. In my middle age, I have stopped focusing on absolute sound and shifting more to systems that communicate music. To my ears the former is digital and the latter is analogue.

A number of dealers belong to one camp or the other while others embrace both. Debating at the dealer is a good way to get their back up. The best dealers will patiently walk you through why they
think their products will work and others will be offended and not want to do business with you.

Hifi is like a religion and on forum or at dealers, sometimes it depends on which denomination you belong to.

I am currently a member of the Church of BBC.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:44 am 
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Quadzilla wrote:
FoxFoxFox wrote:
I'm 20 and a girl... trust me, going into audio stores is weird, I'm often second guessed even though I usually end up knowing more about the tech stuff than the dealers. I'm not Oprah rich but I did well enough for myself that I could afford semi decent gear when I was buying stuff. Nowadays, I'm a tire kicker, hence I don't go into stores much unless I'm looking for something very specific to test out.


"I usually end up knowing more about the tech stuff than the dealers." ... I think we might possibly be getting to the bottom of the problem.

20-somethings in general could benefit greatly from talking a lot less and listening a lot more. It might come as a huge shock, but you don't know as much as you think you do. None of us did when we were 20.
Ouchhhh !
I don't know your age Quadzilla but me at 77 I'm still impressed by the new generations. At 20, they know much more things than me at 20. But it's very normal,
it's the evolution. More it goes, more they learn younger and faster. I just don't understand your post. What was your point exactly ?

Both customers and dealers have some good points.
Then, it all comes down to the respect. Simple.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:18 am 
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technicien38 wrote:
Quadzilla wrote:
FoxFoxFox wrote:
I'm 20 and a girl... trust me, going into audio stores is weird, I'm often second guessed even though I usually end up knowing more about the tech stuff than the dealers. I'm not Oprah rich but I did well enough for myself that I could afford semi decent gear when I was buying stuff. Nowadays, I'm a tire kicker, hence I don't go into stores much unless I'm looking for something very specific to test out.


"I usually end up knowing more about the tech stuff than the dealers." ... I think we might possibly be getting to the bottom of the problem.

20-somethings in general could benefit greatly from talking a lot less and listening a lot more. It might come as a huge shock, but you don't know as much as you think you do. None of us did when we were 20.
Ouchhhh !
I don't know your age Quadzilla but me at 77 I'm still impressed by the new generations. At 20, they know much more things than me at 20. But it's very normal,
it's the evolution. More it goes, more they learn younger and faster. I just don't understand your post. What was your point exactly ?

Both customers and dealers have some good points.
Then, it all comes down to the respect. Simple.


What I think what Quad is trying to say is, it takes many years to truly understand subjectivity vs objectivity, and the 2 are needed work together to fully understand what you are hearing. As your experience increases, your subjectivity will tend pass an objective criteria.

In a nutshell, when you finally learn that you know jack squat, you are on your way to knowing something. I took me to well into my 30's before I realized I knew nothing, and it has nothing to do with setting up a home network or measuring standing waves or understanding the merits a negative feedback amp, it's knowing the difference between subjectivity vs objectivity and how they are affecting what is coming out of your mouth.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:20 am 
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To the OP & others in this thread!
I have to agree when you go into some stores whether a big box one or small unique one that carries some high end brands, 75% of the time you will run into a pompus ass of a sales person who thinks he knows more than you because of the brands they sell and carry, to them it's their job. You can ask them if they heard of this brand or this other brand and they will probably say no because they don't sell it or are very narrow minded in their audio knowledge. Big box stores in my opinion sell entry level c**p from manufacturers who just want them to sell their name and speakers. I have never bought a set of speakers from a big box store and never will JMO.

Now for people who think that maybe your not an audiophile unless you run analog or TT in your system, well I don't run either and my system sounds great. I found a TT to be cumbersome and a lot of work for really not much improvement in sound quality and far too many variables to get your system to sound just right and the cleaning of records a waste of time,JMO. I went to total digital and CD only type set up and I am quite happy with its sound and performance, so are many other people who come over and buy gear off me and hear my system. The argument of Vinyl vs. Digital is a mute case, it comes down to people's personal preference. Eventually everything goes the way of the dodo bird!


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:27 pm 
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kawihornet wrote:
I had a rather unpleasant conversation and email with a dealer recently.
...
Nathan from Cambridge, Ont.


Hi Nathan,

Not every dealers are like that. In my not very long journey (20+ yrs.) in this hobby I have a mantra when I was treated poorly: don't take it personally. Just laugh it off and go elsewhere.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:38 pm 
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Albert wrote:
I usually wear sweats and a t-shirt when I visit audio stores and I am often ignored. .


It is definitely more common to be treated better when you're dressed better than the other way around. That being said, I've been in quite a few uber high end retail stores (not just audio) dressed like a bum and been treated like royalty. As I said earlier, attitude usually comes from the top down.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 1:40 pm 
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rnrgagne wrote:
Albert wrote:
I usually wear sweats and a t-shirt when I visit audio stores and I am often ignored. .


It is definitely more common to be treated better when you're dressed better than the other way around. That being said, I've been in quite a few uber high end retail stores (not just audio) dressed like a bum and been treated like royalty. As I said earlier, attitude usually comes from the top down.


Indeed, it's not what you wear, but how you behave.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:56 pm 
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banerjba wrote:
I am currently a member of the Church of BBC.


Bless you my son!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:31 pm 
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europroducts wrote:
banerjba wrote:
I am currently a member of the Church of BBC.


Bless you my son!


:lol: :lol: I wish I could afford to go to church more often. So much cool stuff now (Graham, Chartwell drool)!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:25 pm 
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Treat others as you would like done to yourself...right?

But seriously though, being in sales for 20 years has taught me its not obout being interesting, its about being interested. Showing empathy, being an active listener is key in customer service - the world of buisness has changed abit though & so has the average consumer. In buisness, you either get with it - or eventually, you get gone. There is very little loyality today - and, contrary to the beliefs of some...even if the customer is wrong, they are right - period.

We had an old saying in sales (or buisness)... "you can be so right that your dead right", yup - you lose regardless of being "right". Sure, you kept your pride, but pride don't pay the bills.

People are funny, I am funny...we all have our qwirks,...So, if you don't really love people (warts and all), get out of sales and customer service...go sell to chipmunks, a dog, or something else.

The experience economy we are in today is about "the experience in buying"...
It's not the old service economy of "wowing people" with what you know...They come expecting to be involved, and they expect you to listen and help when asked. The customer of today spends more time researching just about everything - good or bad, they often believe they know more than you as the retailer. Sure, they might not - buts its not about you, its about them. Do i want to recommend something thats not a fit to a customer, dispite their research? No,...but, if I build "like and trust" with my customer they generally want my opinion at some point and I'll make a healthy buisness of it, and - yup, get referrals - "the gold in sales."

Take Home Depo, the Apple Store, Starbucks to name a few, its about the experience when buying - I mean, why else pay 4 bucks for brown water? Different world. Get with it and you'll have happier customer and a happier cheque book. Don't and, well - eventually you'll miss the boat - regardless of the buisness your in.

I recently had a horrible experience with one of our dealers. I was called a SOB, a bleep'n so and so...the dealer kindly used his psych degree and assessed "I had emotional problems and was too sensitive"...I could go on, but - eventually I am sure he will be out of business too...

Overall, there are some good dealers and some bad dealers out there and it all comes down to the fact that we are dealing with people who have their own ideas, qwirks, warts, and personalities...The good dealers understand how to communicate with other people. Those ones will likely continue to get my business...

Fun topic no?


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