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 Post subject: Re: room/sound panels.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:25 pm 
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Great post from OBI.

OBI56 wrote:
Acoustical Engineering is a 5 to 6 year university degree, depending on where you get your degree, that requires a strong background in physics and advanced mathematics just to get accepted in the program. I don't think that someone with rudimentary high school math and physics can fully grasp and understand everything that is involved simultaneously, nor it is something you can pick up in 5 minutes or have a free app do professionally for you. So yes, a LOT of folks try stuff based on anecdotal results with varying levels of success. And, go figure, it really IS room dependent.


For the same reason, many folks buy speakers instead of building them.


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 Post subject: Re: room/sound panels.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:11 pm 
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Location: Mississauga, ON, CA
I looked over various diy acoustic panel projects. Unlike building your own speakers you can move around panels and listen / take measurements as much as you like. I framed a bunch of sizes and picked up a bag of Roxul. Pics are in my profile. Difficult L shaped room. Made panels to hang, large corner bass traps and pairs of freestanding panels that fold up and can be hidden in the closet. Biggest cost was actually some nice fabrics.


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 Post subject: Re: room/sound panels.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:10 am 
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Location: Rose dale, BC, CA
To make a room sound great it does not need to be complicated with acoustic specs.etc.Start with proven ways, all can be found studying audio sites on net,I have for years,it just takes time but the rewards and money you save is well worth it.Touching on some starting points,solid core sealed door,dedicated power lines,proper hvac a must,proper lighting,you notice these things don't involve gear or room treatment,but years of experience shows they are just as important.Now to room acoustics,bass trap all 4 corners floor to ceiling,first reflection absorbers/ reflectors walls and ceiling,diffusion on back wall and front between speakers.Look on net for ways to build these treatments,there is tons of information about materials and there different densites,acoustic properties and where to correctly place them,it's not rocket science,try to keep it simple and experiment,that is a main part of this hobby.It's very rewarding making this stuff from material purchased from hardware stores having huge audio rewards and pride of accomplicment,not to mention the $$ saved.Done correctly you will start tweaking next because your room is now able to respond to tweaks,which is a whole new obsession,along with learning how to listen deeper into your vinyl and tube gear hearing all your music for the first time.I could keep going but you need to learn from your own exsperience,and rewards,room first then analog gear,then collect vinyl and enjoy the goosebumps to follow.


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 Post subject: Re: room/sound panels.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:47 pm 
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Location: London, ON, CA
Zipp wrote:
To make a room sound great it does not need to be complicated with acoustic specs.etc.Start with proven ways, all can be found studying audio sites on net,I have for years,it just takes time but the rewards and money you save is well worth it.Touching on some starting points,solid core sealed door,dedicated power lines,proper hvac a must,proper lighting,you notice these things don't involve gear or room treatment,but years of experience shows they are just as important.Now to room acoustics,bass trap all 4 corners floor to ceiling,first reflection absorbers/ reflectors walls and ceiling,diffusion on back wall and front between speakers.Look on net for ways to build these treatments,there is tons of information about materials and there different densites,acoustic properties and where to correctly place them,it's not rocket science,try to keep it simple and experiment,that is a main part of this hobby.It's very rewarding making this stuff from material purchased from hardware stores having huge audio rewards and pride of accomplicment,not to mention the $$ saved.Done correctly you will start tweaking next because your room is now able to respond to tweaks,which is a whole new obsession,along with learning how to listen deeper into your vinyl and tube gear hearing all your music for the first time.I could keep going but you need to learn from your own exsperience,and rewards,room first then analog gear,then collect vinyl and enjoy the goosebumps to follow.


Well....I certainly cant dispute that doing your homework and some careful diy can yield reasonable results....for the record though, my company builds acoustically engineered rooms, we have done for years for private customers, board rooms, commercial foyers and a few TV type studios...and ...well frankly ...its surprisingly close to rocket science. I applaud your enthusiasm to be sure but lets be very clear here what your talking about is some very generalized improvements to a generic room, which is fine.
If we are going to throw "facts" out there almost no two rooms will spec the same and to get things right is literally an engineers task. I can look up my symptoms of illness on the internet and from time to time get the right diagnosis...a doctor this does not make.
As a matter of interest my commercial construction company has done several projects in large buildings with open foyers and the acoustical engineering behind what looks like basic implementation of construction materials boggles the mind, and I have been building for a very long time. Think about large hospital multi floor foyers...listen the next time you go into one and you will start to understand how complicated the modeling is to get these spaces to not sound like a warehouse.
If we are going to be "as a matter in fact" around here one needs to put some disclaimers like "I have had success with" or "I tried this and it worked" other wise the facts as presented in your posts just aren't ...sorry , I mean no disrespect

Now...like the other loosely related thread here on this forum you seem to assert that Vinyl is the only way to get good sound....Please, all your doing is hurting your credibility and eventually just cause a flame up....its great if you enjoy the beautiful distortions of a great analogue rig...not all of us agree.


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 Post subject: Re: room/sound panels.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:21 pm 
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You guys are right acoustical sound treatment is a science.While most acoustical engineers agree on the same basic principals they do have different views and methods on the topic.I didn't measure my room before I started but probably should have.Tonight I'm about to install panel number 10 which will be part of my cloud.It has been nothing short of a staggering result and makes me evaluate my past years of audio listening as,I was listening to stereo playback wrong..Enough posts have been made lately with links to lots of information in the acoustical forum.

With out making it rocket science,here is an example of how the lay out would go if you dealt with an acoustic dealer.click on the photo for larger version..
FYI:
A 242 trap is 2 inches of rigid insulation
A 244 trap is 4 inches of rigid insulation
A Monster trap is 6 inches of rigid insulation
Need a Tri trap build a studio chunk corner bass trap


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 Post subject: Re: room/sound panels.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:31 pm 
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Itsnotluck wrote:
You guys are right acoustical sound treatment is a science.While most acoustical engineers agree on the same basic principals they do have different views and methods on the topic.I didn't measure my room before I started but probably should have.Tonight I'm about to install panel number 10 which will be part of my cloud.It has been nothing short of a staggering result and makes me evaluate my past years of audio listening as,I was listening to stereo playback wrong..Enough posts have been made lately with links to lots of information in the acoustical forum.

With out making it rocket science,here is an example of how the lay out would go if you dealt with an acoustic dealer.click on the photo for larger version..
FYI:
A 242 trap is 2 inches of rigid insulation
A 244 trap is 4 inches of rigid insulation
A Monster trap is 6 inches of rigid insulation
Need a Tri trap build a studio chunk corner bass trap


You see this I like, someone who is enthusiastic about the possibilities , has done appropriate homework to get very reasonable results...kudos, for those who haven't seen basic modelling this is a good look at the basics. This kind of info is relatively easy to source and it will help you.
Realistically , if one was to implement a strategy like this the improvement is quantifiable. Where things get crazy is when a customer has certain complicated interior design elements that must be hit , things go off the rails then.


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 Post subject: Re: room/sound panels.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:44 pm 
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Location: Waverley, NS, CA
https://www.long-mcquade.com/department ... pagination

Canadian inventory.
Lots of local stores.


Last edited by allgonoshow on Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: room/sound panels.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:03 pm 
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I don`t believe foam does much of anything for the low end
Personally would not touch that stuff
1000% better off with OC 703-or 5


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 Post subject: Re: room/sound panels.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:11 pm 
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Sound travels at 1126 feet per second, that's the basis of everything in acoustics. Really, if you understand how to calculate the speed of sound, first reflections, standing waves, and backslap, you can improve the acoustics in any domestic setting in less than an hour, no degree necessary. Taming a standard sized room in a dwelling is way different and way simpler that dialing in a concrete hockey rink for a live performance or the inside of some weird Frank Gehry shaped creation.

I came across this seller recently if anybody is interested.

http://canada.foambymail.com/acoustical-foam-products.html


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 Post subject: Re: room/sound panels.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:37 pm 
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drummermitchell wrote:
I don`t believe foam does much of anything for the low end
Personally would not touch that stuff
1000% better off with OC 703-or 5


Check this:
http://audiophilereview.com/room-acoust ... -work.html

My cloud is now up and the present panels sound awesome.The great thing about this project is I've been able to hear the effects every two panels at a time.One very interesting thing is the ability to play at louder volumes with out the room breaking up.There is a sense of total control over bass and all other frequencies.
One of the best ways to cure "digititis" as I have taken a leap towards a more natural sound.My CDP sounds like the turn table I always dreamed of :lol:.I can hear the spit hit the mic...


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:29 pm 
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Location: Victoria, BC, CA
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 Post subject: Re: room/sound panels.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:47 am 
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drummermitchell wrote:
I don`t believe foam does much of anything for the low end
Personally would not touch that stuff
1000% better off with OC 703-or 5



So, what do you do with the OC stuff?
Looks like raw material fiberglass.
It is better or different than Roxul, which is more commonly available.
Do you build a frame around it, cover it fabric?

Any pics?


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 Post subject: Re: room/sound panels.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:11 am 
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Posts: 555
Location: Athabasca, AB, CA
Lots of info at gearslutz.com under Studio building/bass traps
Ethan Winer the audio expert music player forum
Acoustic Facts Ethan Winer
Gik
Realtraps


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 Post subject: Re: room/sound panels.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:51 am 
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Location: Charlottetown, PE, CA
allgonoshow wrote:
Do you build a frame around it, cover it fabric?

Any pics?


Here are the absorption coefficients for insulation you can buy off the shelf. 1 is a perfect absorber by %, less than 1 is that percentage. So 0.73 would be 73%. You get the idea. Roxul 4" is great stuff for DIY absorbers.

http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm

Sorry for big pics.

Frame with Roxul
Image

Fabric covered.
Image

Installed.
Image

Another design idea.
Image

And another basic one. (my first try)
Image


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 Post subject: Re: room/sound panels.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:53 am 
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Location: Rose dale, BC, CA
Sure sounds like someone is using this forum to sell his business,when I talk of treating rooms it's diy not hiring a professional company and there products.If you are designing a music theatre then it is rocket science,but a home listening room with diy treatments placed in correct positions all to save $$ and have fun learning and building,that is what I'm talking about.Hard to take pride in something someone else did for a large sum of money.


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