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 Post subject: Re: OLED Worth the $$?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 3:45 am 
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Tangram wrote:
zon001 wrote:
when you say 4 k and 1080p have no difference, that is false, 4 k is 4 time higher resolution, and it shows specificly on big screen, the problem with 4 k is there is no 4 k content, a few station are starting to produce 4 k like videotron hockey night, but only available trough videotron cable. so all others have to be upconvert, and yes there is not much difference when upconverting a signal from 1080 p to 4 k , but you cannot say there is no difference.
when movies and television will have more 4 k content. you will be very pleased to know you are ready, specialy if you don t intend to change your next tv set very soon.


I have to disagree. I watch 4K Netflix through a Roku 4 projected onto a 110 inch screen. From my viewing distance, 1O-11 feet, there is no difference between 1080P and 4K. Smaller screens would definitely be no different from a normal viewing distance.


Netflix is the worst possible source to make this comparison from. Their 4K stream is extremely compressed and is absolutely not indicative of the picture quality you will get form a dedicated uncompressed 4K source such as Blu-ray or even a slightly compressed 4K feed such as that being produced by cable and satellite companies.

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 Post subject: Re: OLED Worth the $$?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 3:54 am 
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The picture is gorgeous. If that is what extremely compressed looks like, then I am cool with that.


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 Post subject: Re: OLED Worth the $$?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:35 am 
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Tangram wrote:
ripblade wrote:
Some of these 4k displays are about more than just pixel count....upsampling on some of these is quite impressive, making SD look like HD. Then there's motion artifact control that reduces juddering, flimmering and aliasing. These are not just TVs anymore but displays with full graphics enhancement engines.

This website has fairly comprehensive reviews of a wide range of displays. It's a good place to narrow down a list of contenders.

https://lcdtvbuyingguide.com/


Looks like a really good site. Thinking I may splurge on an LG 55" OLED but it looks like the latest models aren't yet available in Canada. Thinking the OLED55B6P if I can find one. Like the fact that it doesn't have a curved screen and it should look good wall-mounted. Also like that some of the connections are on the back, not the side, as it would be nice to hide all the wires.


It looks like East Hamilton Radio has the new LG OLED's in stock, including the 65" 4K Signature set for a penny under $11,000. Not too far from Oakville. Like you say the new models are not curved. I guess that was a short lived fad.

http://www.easthamiltonradio.on.ca/en/c ... D/sp55-2-Y

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 Post subject: Re: OLED Worth the $$?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:48 am 
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Yeah, I am definitely not into the curved display. But, I remember seeing the first OLEDs at a Sony Store in their 11" displays and thought they looked wonderful. I'm sure with a 4K source and 4K capability it will only look better. I'm sure even newer tech ones with great 1080 to 4K upconversion will even look decent. So, I'm sure things will eventually look up for the 4K TVs. Until then, I'm gonna have to stick with my 1080p Sony, which looks great.

I think the key is setup as well. You can have the best TV, but have it poorly calibrated. I usually turn brightness down a bit, and turn off mostly all of the "super engine" extras and I find it looks better. The only thing I left on was blackness corrector. I found it to make the blacks look better the majority of the time. Older TVs I've had with blackness corrector often were laggy and would change suddenly or really slowly, and when the scene was over took some time to realize and change. Newer TVs, I'm assuming, are better at this and make it less noticeable. I'm sure 4k will get better at this over time as well. OLED probably will not have this problem, though.


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 Post subject: Re: OLED Worth the $$?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:49 am 
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Tangram wrote:
The picture is gorgeous. If that is what extremely compressed looks like, then I am cool with that.


And yet you say there is no difference between the 4K Netflix feed and the HD Netflix feed on a 110 inch screen. 4K has four times the pixel count of HD and therefor four times the resolution. Are you suggesting that our, or at least your eyes, are not capable of discerning the difference on anything but super sized screens? I think if the source is fully uncompressed 4K, that even on screens of average size, read, well below 110 inches, the difference in picture quality should be, would be and is obvious. Similar to, or greater than, the differences between SD and 1080P. This has been my experience, although admittedly limited.

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Last edited by good sound on Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OLED Worth the $$?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:51 am 
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To answer the post, no OLED is not worth it for you. The technology is not quite ready for prime time. The one suggestion I would make would be to have the your projector professionally setup. Mike O. has done mine TVs and I am pleased with the results.


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 Post subject: Re: OLED Worth the $$?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:13 am 
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Hello,

Late to the discussion, but OLED is still suffering from the issue that Plasma has... and that is one of burn, or more a loss of light from the given 'pixels' due to long term image brightness in a localized area.

I saw this occur on the LG 65" 4k curved unit, that was on display at the local best buy.

They received the unit, and I saw it there, in the first day or two of the install.

I warned them that they were using the software package (a cycled image sequence) that LG intended for their LCD units. I walked over to the curved 1080P OLED unit and said, look closely, the software package that you've been running for the curved unit, for almost a full year, has no strong bright repeating images that are stable and unmoving. Note the complete lack of them. We walked back to the OLED, and said, that 'this image package will eventually burn this very expense OLED, and it should not be done. I advise you to change that imaging source, immediately, as soon as you can'.

I came back in, one month later and saw they had done nothing. I waited for the images to cycle and noted that I could see darkened areas, blotchy areas and then a perfect "LG" and associated LG symbol, in the one spot where it constantly repeated.

An $8k TV, and they destroyed it.

It is probably the same in every single other Best Buy across Canada. Probably the same install in all of the US stores as well.

That means, if true.... approximately +1000 65" 4k curved OLED $8k LG televisions have been destroyed.

In a situation that was trivially easy to prevent. The question is why was it not done, when it was done for the 1080P 55" units that were also on display.

It will also pretty well end the attempt to make OLED mainstream.

It makes one wonder what exact series of events put those 4k OLED's in those display situations, and who might have been involved in the scenario. As I don't think that LG would consciously allow it, when they went though so much trouble and expense to make sure it never happened with the 1080P units.

As follow up to seeing that burn, I decided to take a look at all the Samsung OLED phones that were on display at the cell phone display area at the given Best Buy. Every one of them I looked at, was badly burned.

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 Post subject: Re: OLED Worth the $$?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:30 am 
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Teo Audio wrote:
Hello,

Late to the discussion, but OLED is still suffering from the issue that Plasma has... and that is one of burn, or more a loss of light from the given 'pixels' due to long term image brightness in a localized area.

I saw this occur on the LG 65" 4k curved unit, that was on display at the local best buy.

They received the unit, and I saw it there, in the first day or two of the install.

I warned them that they were using the software package (a cycled image sequence) that LG intended for their LCD units. I walked over to the curved 1080P OLED unit and said, look closely, the software package that you've been running for the curved unit, for almost a full year, has no strong bright repeating images that are stable and unmoving. Note the complete lack of them. We walked back to the OLED, and said, that 'this image package will eventually burn this very expense OLED, and it should not be done. I advise you to change that imaging source, immediately, as soon as you can'.

I came back in, one month later and saw they had done nothing. I waited for the images to cycle and noted that I could see darkened areas, blotchy areas and then a perfect "LG" and associated LG symbol, in the one spot where it constantly repeated.

An $8k TV, and they destroyed it.

It is probably the same in every single other Best Buy across Canada. Probably the same install in all of the US stores as well.

That means, if true.... approximately +1000 65" 4k curved OLED $8k LG televisions have been destroyed.

In a situation that was trivially easy to prevent. The question is why was it not done, when it was done for the 1080P 55" units that were also on display.

It will also pretty well end the attempt to make OLED mainstream.

It makes one wonder what exact series of events put those 4k OLED's in those display situations, and who might have been involved in the scenario. As I don't think that LG would consciously allow it, when they went though so much trouble and expense to make sure it never happened with the 1080P units.

As follow up to seeing that burn, I decided to take a look at all the Samsung OLED phones that were on display at the cell phone display area at the given Best Buy. Every one of them I looked at, was badly burned.


The 65"4K curved LG OLED at my local Best Buy looked fine. Absolutely stunning in fact, with no burn in issues whatsoever. The Samsung OLED phones not withstanding I think you may be jumping to conclusions as to cause without an appropriate amount of evidence in the case of the LG OLED. It very easily could have simply been a one off defect with that particular set.

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 Post subject: Re: OLED Worth the $$?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:49 am 
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hello,

Apologies --but no. (If I sound contentious, it's due to such talk being a well developed muscle. I've been on the net discussing audio, since ~1993. We practically had to use horses to get the messages around :) )

I know that OLED still has burn issues and that such unmoving bright images will cause burn in, in a situation likened to that of plasma burn.

Not quite the same, technically, but image burn is the result, with respect to what people see and how they describe it.

Depending on how the OLED Television is set up, how long the bright image is held, and so on, this will predict level of burn and time frame before it is noted by the human eye. In the LG set up at the local best buy, the TV was in full dynamic image mode, so it was over bright, over contrasted. Like a rear projection CRT TV or large ceiling mount CRT, or a plasma TV..when each of those are not adjusted correctly, burn in can occur very quickly. So I agree that it may have been a local issue, a calibration issue.



Burn in can be slowed but will eventually overcome each of those technologies. OLED technology, in it's current form, is sadly on that list as well.

In a darkened room, used for film viewing, like a cinema, the LG 4k TV's are stunning, Like that of a perfected CRT projection system. Only with the advent of OLED flatscreens can we finally say that CRT contrast ratio is eclipsed. (I'm kind of forgetting the better plasma's, here) That we can finally put away the CRT projector as the true king of the contrast hill, with a full on 20k:1 contrast ratio in a given single frame. All other technologies like that of LCD, and DILA, the Sony equivalent, etc, they can only muster a 1k:1 contrast ratio, at best, in the given single frame. On a good day. Mostly... they can't do it.

There is only the three that can show you true contrast that is actually lifelike...and they all suffer from early death issues as their form of a handicap. And that's CRT, Plasma, and now OLED.

I have high hopes for OLED. I very much hope that it gets there. I'll pay just about anything for that incredible (single frame) Contrast ratio that mimics real life. And I have. If I had the money I would buy a 4k OLED for the contrast ratio --- in a heart beat. I would use it exclusively for film viewing, and keep the LCD around for general use. I can no longer deal with CRT projection and plasma.

As for DLP? DLP seems to sit in the middle, between that of the CRT/Plasma/OLED and the "LCD/DILA/SXRD" projection devices. DLP, properly done, can be very good. But they (good DLP examples) are so few and far between.

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Last edited by Teo Audio on Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:03 am, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OLED Worth the $$?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:52 am 
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well at the montreal show 2 years ago they showed a samsum 80 inche curved tv screen, and that was THE best picture I ever saw, every little details where clearly showing clarity that no 1080 P, tv could ever matche.
and what where you listening on Netflix that was native 4 K because they can also upconvert whatever they want.
though Netflix is suppose to partnered with cinema imax to produce some movie in 4 k, because the big movie company don t want to do movies in 4 k. they say all the movie theater would have to upgrade there projector to play 4 k and it would be too costly to do.
so Netflix not getting what they want and specialy WHEN they want it, from movie company.
they have dicide to partner with imax to produce 4k film, but I am not sure if that as been done so far.


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 Post subject: Re: OLED Worth the $$?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:06 am 
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good sound wrote:
Tangram wrote:
The picture is gorgeous. If that is what extremely compressed looks like, then I am cool with that.


And yet you say there is no difference between the 4K Netflix feed and the HD Netflix feed on a 110 inch screen. 4K has four times the pixel count of HD and therefor four times the resolution. Are you suggesting that our, or at least your eyes, are not capable of discerning the difference on anything but super sized screens? I think if the source is fully uncompressed 4K, that even on screens of average size, read, well below 110 inches, the difference in picture quality should be, would be and is obvious. Similar to, or greater than, the differences between SD and 1080P. This has been my experience, although admittedly limited.


I guess I would need to compare a 4K Blu-ray with a 1080P Blu-Ray. I guess what I am saying is that for me (and I am pretty picky) the quality of my current projector output with a decent source is absolutely sensational and more than meets my personal needs.

Once immersed in a movie a lot of the subtle differences between images is long forgotten.


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 Post subject: Re: OLED Worth the $$?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:16 am 
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Great responses here and you should also follow up on AVS Forums.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/index.php

Every possible question can be found answered there.


Good Luck


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 Post subject: Re: OLED Worth the $$?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:20 pm 
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Teo Audio wrote:
hello,

Apologies --but no. (If I sound contentious, it's due to such talk being a well developed muscle. I've been on the net discussing audio, since ~1993. We practically had to use horses to get the messages around :) )

I know that OLED still has burn issues and that such unmoving bright images will cause burn in, in a situation likened to that of plasma burn.

Not quite the same, technically, but image burn is the result, with respect to what people see and how they describe it.

Depending on how the OLED Television is set up, how long the bright image is held, and so on, this will predict level of burn and time frame before it is noted by the human eye. In the LG set up at the local best buy, the TV was in full dynamic image mode, so it was over bright, over contrasted. Like a rear projection CRT TV or large ceiling mount CRT, or a plasma TV..when each of those are not adjusted correctly, burn in can occur very quickly. So I agree that it may have been a local issue, a calibration issue.



Burn in can be slowed but will eventually overcome each of those technologies. OLED technology, in it's current form, is sadly on that list as well.

In a darkened room, used for film viewing, like a cinema, the LG 4k TV's are stunning, Like that of a perfected CRT projection system. Only with the advent of OLED flatscreens can we finally say that CRT contrast ratio is eclipsed. (I'm kind of forgetting the better plasma's, here) That we can finally put away the CRT projector as the true king of the contrast hill, with a full on 20k:1 contrast ratio in a given single frame. All other technologies like that of LCD, and DILA, the Sony equivalent, etc, they can only muster a 1k:1 contrast ratio, at best, in the given single frame. On a good day. Mostly... they can't do it.

There is only the three that can show you true contrast that is actually lifelike...and they all suffer from early death issues as their form of a handicap. And that's CRT, Plasma, and now OLED.

I have high hopes for OLED. I very much hope that it gets there. I'll pay just about anything for that incredible (single frame) Contrast ratio that mimics real life. And I have. If I had the money I would buy a 4k OLED for the contrast ratio --- in a heart beat. I would use it exclusively for film viewing, and keep the LCD around for general use. I can no longer deal with CRT projection and plasma.

As for DLP? DLP seems to sit in the middle, between that of the CRT/Plasma/OLED and the "LCD/DILA/SXRD" projection devices. DLP, properly done, can be very good. But they (good DLP examples) are so few and far between.


Personally I don't see any information here that would or should scare me, or anyone else, off of purchasing a modern 4K OLED display. It sounds like as long as you take the proper care and precaution and don't operate the OLED in torch mode 24/7 you shouldn't expect to encounter any burn in type issues any sooner or any more severe than any other fixed pixel technology device. Many, many people have purchased Plasma displays as well as other types of displays that are susceptible to burn in and run them for years without any issues all the while at the time of Plasma's release, stores made the same mistake with them as well. My friend Art has a Pioneer Elite plasma that he purchased in 2003 and uses several hours a day and has had no burn in issues. I set the TV up for him and warned him about the dangers of leaving static images on the display for extended periods.

Warning people of potential issues or pitfalls is one thing and all well and good, but not qualifying the information in it's proper perspective can lead some to believe that the new OLED sets are not a viable option when in fact they absolutely are and an amazing performing one at that, with absolutely no reason to believe that with proper set-up and care can't deliver many years of trouble free state of the art video performance in all viewing environments.

Wow, now there's a run on sentence for ya!

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 Post subject: Re: OLED Worth the $$?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:58 pm 
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mpublicover wrote:
Are anyone else besides LG producing large screen OLED? I didn't get any hits searching Samsung or Sony.
If this is the case then there must be a reason for it which is enough to keep me away.


Panasonic's 65" 4K OLED set has been available in Europe since late last year and is coming to North America or has already

Price in Europe 10,000 Euro's, ouch!.

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 Post subject: Re: OLED Worth the $$?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:10 pm 
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I have had my 60" Samsung Plasma TV now for almost 2 years and I see no burn in. I have turned the brightness down and used settings suggested on the AVS forum. 1080p looks great. I also have a Mitsubishi HC5 projector that throws a great picture on my 106" screen from 11' away. I feel no desire to upgrade any time soon.


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