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Cables with the greatest impact in your system
Analog Interconnect 20%  20%  [ 48 ]
Phono cable 10%  10%  [ 24 ]
Digital 3%  3%  [ 7 ]
Speaker 22%  22%  [ 52 ]
Power 19%  19%  [ 44 ]
None 26%  26%  [ 61 ]
Total votes : 236
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:10 pm 
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JGP wrote:
The comment of religion is not to be taken literally. Nobody is here to discuss that, it is merely a point of belief and the strength of one's beliefs.

Again, your comments of system quality is to assume that those who don't agree with you have lessor systems, or poor systems.

As for me, my current system is in the neighborhood of 10k. I feel that is more than enough, quality speaking, to be a contender to "see the light".

I am a not only a avid hobbyist, collector, aficionado of fine equipment as well as recordings but a accomplished musician. I not only come from a family of musicians, but I have (perhaps like you) formal training in music - and no, I am not tone deaf. I "know" how things should sound musically speaking.

Again, insults to many of us here. Currently, 1/4 of members disagree with you. Perhaps we are all tone deaf with poor fisher price systems and never had the privileged of having training like you. In the nuances and "plucking of strings"...God knows I've never plucked a string in all my musical years. "Wait, perhaps that was a G chord and not C chord that I just played..."

I'd love to see you properly AB without bias, without introducing "the mystic". In fact, I'd love to place you in-front of a black curtain and test your abilities to do such, but - judging by your response, I don't think your beliefs can be swayed. YES, I DID SAY BELIEFS. We all have them, that's what it is to be human. If this was indeed a clear cut science, not only would everyone forget about arguing it, but there were be no professionally written articles arguing the implausibility of it, and every manufacturer would clearly recommend it. There would be no grey.

Man, this is a hobby full of grey.


I make objective, unbiased comparisons on a regular basis. I get a lot of equipment through here, far more than most people are going to hear. I base my opinions on experience, not "bias".
You don't always need an expensive system to hear differences in components and cables. Take cheap cables out of a cheap system and put in good cables and you can hear the difference. People do it all the time. Only biased nay-sayers would argue that point.

I'm 'out'.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:21 pm 
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Topic has tipped the scales for me.

I'm out too.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:37 pm 
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Back to the original question. I use RCA not balanced.

I have basic entry level equipment on two systems. Both systems are built around Nordost Leif series, mostly Blue Heaven(BH) wire and power products.

I start at the integrated amp: Best interconnect Blue Heaven is for pre to main on the integrated. Next is the BH power cord for the integrated.

Then the source so for me that is turntables and the phono pre. BH interconnect and power cord.

Lesser Nordost for tuner (Purple Flair) and cd (White Lightning).

Only the speaker wire is not Nordost - Atlas in one system and Kimber in the other.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:14 pm 
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From my experience, I find that power cords are underrated, and speaker cables are overrated.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:38 pm 
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Forbes_2 wrote:
From my experience, I find that power cords are underrated, and speaker cables are overrated.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Agreed 100%. Especially on digital equipment. I believe in going back to front with it. Although would usually be most fussy with ICs, the bulk of the business is behind the system when I'm setting something up.

YMMV and all that.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:16 pm 
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The answer is snake oil, the weakest link um I wonder where that might be ,People buy all these expensive cables to attach all there equipment ,and low and behold the very cheapest wiring inside you speakers must be the weakest link defeating the purpose .12 gd monster cable works just fine connecting my amps to the speakers with zero noticeable differences from higher end cables as I said the wiring inside the speakers is very low grade .put that in your pipe and smoke it lol


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:59 am 
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@Popper2112, that's great if you don't notice a difference between ordinary Monster and more expensive speaker cables. It sure saves you money!

Which more expensive cables have you tried?

Popper2112 wrote:
The answer is snake oil, the weakest link um I wonder where that might be ,People buy all these expensive cables to attach all there equipment ,and low and behold the very cheapest wiring inside you speakers must be the weakest link defeating the purpose .12 gd monster cable works just fine connecting my amps to the speakers with zero noticeable differences from higher end cables as I said the wiring inside the speakers is very low grade .put that in your pipe and smoke it lol


Welcome to CAM, by the way.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:14 am 
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sthomas1049 wrote:
I like to look at like this. As a consumer we have a choice. Out side marketing, subjective views and or objective measurements (or lack of) one can not debate that choice. It’s a matter of acceptance.

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Bumpy wrote:

Double D, it's a digital signal. You cannot lose bits.


Bumpy – digital transmission is performed in an analog forum similar to a square wave. And just like an analog signal, it is also susceptive to being influenced. In the case of SPDIF which includes TOSLINK and AES/EBU, this signal must also carry the clocking information which despite the advances with relocking technology within newer DAC’s, this is still critical. A DAC will employ a PLL circuit (Phase Lock Loop) that will make an attempt at reclocking the information but is still reliant on a steady clock from the source. A cable can induce clocking errors to which a PLL circuit may not be able to recover.

Modern DAC’s in the form of Asynchronous USB and SPDIF cannot recover lost bits. The technology is impossible with SPDIF and not present with USB.


I'm shocked that a cable could be considered a source of jitter.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:29 am 
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Bumpy wrote:
sthomas1049 wrote:
I like to look at like this. As a consumer we have a choice. Out side marketing, subjective views and or objective measurements (or lack of) one can not debate that choice. It’s a matter of acceptance.

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Bumpy wrote:

Double D, it's a digital signal. You cannot lose bits.


Bumpy – digital transmission is performed in an analog forum similar to a square wave. And just like an analog signal, it is also susceptive to being influenced. In the case of SPDIF which includes TOSLINK and AES/EBU, this signal must also carry the clocking information which despite the advances with relocking technology within newer DAC’s, this is still critical. A DAC will employ a PLL circuit (Phase Lock Loop) that will make an attempt at reclocking the information but is still reliant on a steady clock from the source. A cable can induce clocking errors to which a PLL circuit may not be able to recover.

Modern DAC’s in the form of Asynchronous USB and SPDIF cannot recover lost bits. The technology is impossible with SPDIF and not present with USB.


I'm shocked that a cable could be considered a source of jitter.

I believe that the theory being put forth is that a poorly made or shielded cable might allow enough interference through that the digital signal could be corrupted and therefore cause issues with proper data transmission. I might be misinterpreting though.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:44 am 
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Bumpy wrote:
sthomas1049 wrote:
I like to look at like this. As a consumer we have a choice. Out side marketing, subjective views and or objective measurements (or lack of) one can not debate that choice. It’s a matter of acceptance.

___________________

Bumpy wrote:

Double D, it's a digital signal. You cannot lose bits.


Bumpy – digital transmission is performed in an analog forum similar to a square wave. And just like an analog signal, it is also susceptive to being influenced. In the case of SPDIF which includes TOSLINK and AES/EBU, this signal must also carry the clocking information which despite the advances with relocking technology within newer DAC’s, this is still critical. A DAC will employ a PLL circuit (Phase Lock Loop) that will make an attempt at reclocking the information but is still reliant on a steady clock from the source. A cable can induce clocking errors to which a PLL circuit may not be able to recover.

Modern DAC’s in the form of Asynchronous USB and SPDIF cannot recover lost bits. The technology is impossible with SPDIF and not present with USB.


I'm shocked that a cable could be considered a source of jitter.


Not a source of jitter, but can contribute to clocking errors which in turn could contribute to audible jitter.

In the case of SPDIF, the specification states that the connection, which includes cable and connectors should be of 75ohm specification. Why is this important if a cable cannot contribute to clocking errors? Part of my profession involves digital communications – and although I am sure some will argue this is not the same as digital audio, it technically is. I have experienced numerous times where a patch cord which otherwise tests perfectly for connectivity, induces enough clocking errors to bring down a digital circuit. Admittingly this is an extreme example but fundamentally it is no different than digital audio being transmitted across a cable.

Now for the record I am not stating an expensive cable will do a better job at mitigating clocking errors over one of cheaper cost. I like to take a neutral ground on this cable debate for I feel as a consumer we have a choice and that choice cannot be debated. But saying that, a cable does provide an important role in digital transmission.

A cable cannot improve a signal – that is virtually impossible. A cable however, can mitigate damage being done to the signal.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:50 am 
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sthomas1049 wrote:
Not a source of jitter, but can contribute to clocking errors which in turn could contribute to audible jitter.

In the case of SPDIF, the specification states that the connection, which includes cable and connectors should be of 75ohm specification. Why is this important if a cable cannot contribute to clocking errors? Part of my profession involves digital communications – and although I am sure some will argue this is not the same as digital audio, it technically is. I have experienced numerous times where a patch cord which otherwise tests perfectly for connectivity, induces enough clocking errors to bring down a digital circuit. Admittingly this is an extreme example but fundamentally it is no different than digital audio being transmitted across a cable.

Now for the record I am not stating an expensive cable will do a better job at mitigating clocking errors over one of cheaper cost. I like to take a neutral ground on this cable debate for I feel as a consumer we have a choice and that choice cannot be debated. But saying that, a cable does provide an important role in digital transmission.

A cable cannot improve a signal – that is virtually impossible. A cable however, can mitigate damage being done to the signal.


I really value your contributions to the CAM community...obviously one of the more knowledgeable members on this forum who is able to articulate that knowledge. Thank you.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:52 am 
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It's not so much the cable itself, but poor control of impedance at the cable ends, which causes clock jitter.

Bumpy wrote:
I'm shocked that a cable could be considered a source of jitter.


The technical considerations were published in a paper by Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio, who was an Intel senior engineer before his life in audio. That paper is still available on the Internet, at the Positive Feedback site.

The jitter is the result of a phenomenon typical of RF-frequency transmission. (An S/PDIF coax cable of course carries a signal at tens of KHz.) If the impedance at the interfaces is not controlled to strictly 75 ohms, part of the signal energy sent from the transport to the DAC will reflect back down the cable, reflect again, and arrive again, in reduced form, at the DAC input — where it adds or diminishes energy in the signal received by the DAC.

Now a DAC is a frequency counter. It counts transition points, i.e. abrupt voltage shifts, in a square wave. If the reflected energy described above comes near a transition point in the wave (a digital signal being a square wave, of course), then the DAC can be confused as to the moment of transition. Thus, jitter : the tick of the digital clock (which is part of the digital signal) is counted slightly out of step.

By the way, have you ever noticed, with some digital sources, that you can't keep precise time with the music they play ? Try counting the beat with your own source. The problem used to be worse than it is today, but there are still some manifestations of it around.

About the 75 ohm impedance requirement. Yes, it is a spec, and should be respected by digital equipment designers. However there are FCC requirements regarding radiation which make that spec difficult to meet. Details are in Steve Nugent's paper referred to above.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:03 am 
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sthomas1049 wrote:
A cable however, can mitigate damage being done to the signal.


To me, this is the whole cable "debate" in a nutshell.

Some "audiophile grade" USB cables don't even meet protocol spec but have lavish materials that are marketed as better. Same with ethernet cables.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:31 am 
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Back in the early eighties it was obvious to me that speaker cables can make a very big difference in the end result of what comes out of your speakers. Shortly thereafter I discovered the same held true for interconnect cables. At that time I don’t recall the option to upgrade the cables in any of my tone arms. I had the Magnepan Unitrac One, an arm by Grace with the F9E, the Syrinx PU3, and a HR100S. Had I known of such an upgrade, I probably would have considered it. As for the so called audiophile power cord, I don’t recall them being being available until the mid 90’s or so.

I’ve tried a few power cords ranging in price from about a $100 to $2000. And while some of them sounded different to some extent, none of these differences amounted to what I would call an actual “improvement”. As far as I am concerned, the transportation of a “refined” musical signal from one component to another (including speakers) is one thing. The delivery of “raw, unrefined power” from the wall socket to a component quite another. Try as I might I cannot comprehend how or why a power cable of all things could possibly have any sonic merit. So my question is, what is the explanation or science behind audiophile power cords? Do they purify the power by acting as filter? Please explain.


Last edited by Wind Chaser on Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:34 am 
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Bumpy wrote:

Double D, it's a digital signal. You cannot lose bits.


Bumpy – digital transmission is performed in an analog form similar to a square wave. And just like an analog signal, it is also susceptive to being influenced. In the case of SPDIF which includes TOSLINK and AES/EBU, this signal must also carry the clocking information which despite the advances with relocking technology within newer DAC’s, this is still critical. A DAC will employ a PLL circuit (Phase Lock Loop) that will make an attempt at reclocking the information but is still reliant on a steady clock from the source. A cable can induce clocking errors to which a PLL circuit may not be able to recover.

Modern DAC’s in the form of Asynchronous USB and SPDIF cannot recover lost bits. The technology is impossible with SPDIF and not present with USB.[/quote]

I'm shocked that a cable could be considered a source of jitter.[/quote]
I believe that the theory being put forth is that a poorly made or shielded cable might allow enough interference through that the digital signal could be corrupted and therefore cause issues with proper data transmission. I might be misinterpreting though.[/quote]


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